What do you believe about the rapture and why?

[revmwc]

Iconoclast said,'...recently some premill brethren have posted the view that links random verses together link a house of cards....", and he's dead on spot; soooo much of what the premil sensationalists promote concerning 'The Rapture' is just that, a house of cards. Your reference to John in Revelation is exactly that if you're trying to build a case for some sort of 'premil rapture', and you're grossly misrepresenting what is presented to us here. It seems to have been a common occurrence with his prophets to have been transported 'in the Spirit':

Let me see if I can answer without the same ramblings as this. I'll edit out what makes no sense so maybe we can get to the heart of this.

You seem to be saying that iconoclast said "...premill brethren have posted the view that links random verses together link a house of cards....","and he's dead on spot"
So if we pull verses together to make a house of cardss that would be like trying to prove a doctrine by pulling all sorts of verses together to prove it, then you posted a bunch of verses that made no sense and there was nothing to qualify what you were trying to get acroos with all those verses, mumbo jumbo is all you did.
So I said let's look at this since you and as you say iconolist seem not to believe we should try and prove a doctrine by linking random verses let's see if this is what you mean.
We shouldn't try to prove soteriology by pullingrandom verses to prove how someone is to get saved.

So we cannot prove soteriology (doctrine of salvation) in this way by you statement:
John says this about salvation:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Luke wrote in the book of Acts what Paul said to the Phillipian Jailer, Acts 16:30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house

Paul himself said in Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But this is according to what you say iconolist is saying, "view that links random verses together link a house of cards" and yet these verses fit together to show salvation.
Putting precept upon precept line upon line so we can be comparing spiritual to spiritual.

We must be able to prove verses with other verses in order to see the fullness of the Holy Spirits revelation. When every one fits together to show the point being made the Spirit will reveal the truth. You threw a bunch of scripture together trying to prove that whne that is done it is linking "random verses together link a house of cards" but that was a very feeble attempt.
Paul used scripture upon scripture to prove the message He preached, we are to use scripture to prove spiritual truth even when it means bringing passages together that link the doctrine being taught.

Where the problem comes in at is if someone disagrees with the way it is pulled togther because it goes against their doctrinal beliefs. To prove we are once saved always saved we must pull verses together in the sanme manner. So to say pulling them together and they make "a house of cards" just doesn't fly to refute the scriptures that are brought out. You must be able to prove them wrong by other scriptures which prove them wrong, so far without throwing in well that doesn't apply to that doesn't do it, prove how it doesn't apply.

 

[kyredneck]

Right. Jehova Witnesses are masters at proof-texting. Anyone can proove any wild theory by proof-texting. It takes good exegisis and hermeneutics to discover the truth (context and consistency).

The scriptures (the letter) teaches us absolutely NOTHING. They serve only one purpose, and that is to give us a way to articulate what the Spirit is teaching us.
(pure PB doctrine there J.D.)

 

[zrs6v4]

I have been busy since I started this thread last night. Im at work now then have to work on the grandmas car after work. I have some comments I'd like to discuss so I will reply tonight.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello REVMAC,

You are presenting the premill view accurately. It does not disturb me in that as long as we all keep in mind we are called to this:

67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

REVMAC......you would not be disappointed if the postmill, or amill view were correct would you?
Believers must be content with whatever God has planned to do.
I am okay with Historic premill......or if it were possible that the dispy premill was the truth it would be fine with me.
No matter what prophetic calendar we hold to....we are to Adorn the doctrine of Christ and seek to be used of God to win the lost in the providence of God.

Revmac.....have you given an honest read to some of the reformers and puritans and how they looked for the gospel to be victorious in this world despite sin and Satan?

Initially I just rejected these ideas without trying to understand how these older brothers viewed the scripture.

Scriptural study is always good. I believe Isa28 was speaking of those who held a profane view of the written word,and God used Him to call them back to truth.

 

[revmwc]

Hello REVMAC,

You are presenting the premill view accurately. It does not disturb me in that as long as we all keep in mind we are called to this:




REVMAC......you would not be disappointed if the postmill, or amill view were correct would you?
Believers must be content with whatever God has planned to do.
I am okay with Historic premill......or if it were possible that the dispy premill was the truth it would be fine with me.
No matter what prophetic calendar we hold to....we are to Adorn the doctrine of Christ and seek to be used of God to win the lost in the providence of God.

Revmac.....have you given an honest read to some of the reformers and puritans and how they looked for the gospel to be victorious in this world despite sin and Satan?

Initially I just rejected these ideas without trying to understand how these older brothers viewed the scripture.

Scriptural study is always good. I believe Isa28 was speaking of those who held a profane view of the written word,and God used Him to call them back to truth.

I have said the one constant we have is that if we are truly saved we will see each other in Heaven. Haven't read that much of the reformers some but not all. Most like Luther were ostracized for their beliefs many put to death. Tyndale died for bring the bible into the vulgar english language but God had plans for the bible in that language. Wycliffes bones were dug up and dressed in his priest clothing to be defrocked and have his bones burned and ashes poured into a river.
I have seen some but not that much of the reformers. I have always depended more on Paul and the Apostles writing with the O.T. and N.T. writters to see doctrines. Some things the Pastor I was brought up under taught I don't follow today because it doesn't align with scripture. So if scripture can't fit into place without a lot of twisting then I have ahardtime with it, the Catching up of the church pre-tribulation fits real well with each scripture you align with the other on, It is to me too hard to miss, but I realize you and the others hold that it is a lot to twist, and yet you twist things to say they aren't for the church or they are metaphorical. To me when you have to explain a scripture away by saying it is not literal but scriptural or metaphorical because it doesn't fit your doctrine you have a problem. We won't ever convince each other but we do effect those who read what we write.

 

[Iconoclast]

revmac,

To me when you have to explain a scripture away by saying it is not literal but scriptural or metaphorical because it doesn't fit your doctrine you have a problem. We won't ever convince each other but we do effect those who read what we write.

Some things are literal yes....
some things are spiritual....yes
some metaphorical...yes

Explaining away a verse helps no one. I think that we have to be able to distinguish how these things interact.....
keep in Mind the Jews in Jesus day...many times missed the spiritual nature of the Kingdom,and how it relates to the literal physical world.....

it is not either or, but both

here is some postmill ideas on this site
http://americanvision.org/category/eschatology/post-pre-millennialism/

 

[kyredneck]

While the previous poster to mine see it as amil, preterist and other views I see the Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil view.

Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Not the promise in verse 10 those who keep the word of His patience, that would be repentence to salvation as 2 Peter 3 speaks of God being longsuffering to us-ward. Now you see see it argued here wellthat was only for the church at Philidelphia but not verse 13, He that hat an ear let HIM hear waht the Spirit sayeth to the churches, cane you read and comprehend the message to the churches? If so then the promise is yours to claim, also keep in mind that Revelation 3:19 and 20 are used to apply today and yet some say verse 10 only applies to that church. Also verse 11 says I come quickly here we need to ask the question does that mean "quickly" in mans limited view of the word or "quickly" by a God not limited by a timetable? Keeping in mind again 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
In verse 8 God says that to Him 1 day is as 1000 years and 1000 years is as a day, to Him quickly is by His timetable and not ours. Keep in mind this too 2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Many are scoffing today at His coming Peter says it will come as theif in the night when noone expects it, If as the Post-mil and those who see the church not being taken until after the rapture then here is the problem, Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Here we see that the Armies are gathered to fight against Christ who is returning how would they know He was returning at that particular time if the rapture had no occured 7 years prior and were marking the time as their leader Satan knows exactly what God has said.
Given Revelation 3:10 the promise to keep the church from the time of tempatation is to keep the believers from the tribulation.

To continue:
1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Say He will come for His church at with the sound of the Trumpet and we will meet Him in air 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now Revelation 4:1 as Iconolist alluded to says this, 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Then John says he sees this, 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The 24 elders not several things about them:
1 They have crowns upon their heads

2 they are clothed in white raiment

Now let's see what the church is promised.

First off 1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The Church receives their rewards at the Judgement seat or Bema seat judgement not the Great White Throne Judgement notice point 1 above about the 24 elders. They have rewards. If you read Revelation 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There are no rewards given out at this judgement, in fact those judge here end up in the Lake of Fire for not having their name recorded in the book of life (i.e. they were not saved). So the rewards given in 1 Corinthians 3 are at a time other than this judgement. We see the 24 elders with crowns upon thier heads.

Continued:
Notice number 2 in my previous post
They are clothed in with raiment, look at the promise for the church (i.e. the saved in our time)
Revelation 3: 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
Those who overcome, the believer overcomes the second death, will be clothed in white raiment. Notice in Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Notice in verse 14 the Army that comes with Christ is clothed in fine linen WHITE and clean, that would be the Bride, the Church coming with Him as He comes at the 2nd Coming. Remember 1 Thessaloninas 4: the very end state in verse 17 "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Whereever He goes we go after He has Caught the church up with Him 7 years prior. Revelation 4 shows the church in Heaven before the tribulation is revealed in the balance of Johns vision. Any saints on earth after that point arre Tribualtion saints, they will be saved after the church is taken out. With the Trib being a Jewish age the people who are saved will be saved just as they were in the Jewish age before and in our age, by faith in Christ. They won't have the Holy Spirit filling and indwelling them but He will come upon them as He will just as He did with Samson and others in the O.T.

The OP is basically requesting:

Which of the below do you hold to?:

pretribulation rapture
mid-tribulation rapture
post-tribulation rapture
partial rapture
pre-wrath rapture

In the next three posts, Iconoclast, kyredneck, and OUB all basically agreed on a last day rapture or general resurrection. Even though a last day rapture or general resurrection is not included on Zack's list, we three did actually address the OP.

Where in these next three voluminous posts of yours do you get around to actually addressing the OP? I can't seem to find which one you hold to:

pretribulation rapture?
mid-tribulation rapture?
post-tribulation rapture?
partial rapture?
pre-wrath rapture?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

revmac,



Some things are literal yes....
some things are spiritual....yes
some metaphorical...yes

Why do so many men not understand these basic hermeneutic facts? The languages & literary tools used in the writing of the Word are VERY different from our own & must be interpreted in light of these facts. But then, it would not be so easy to read our own beliefs into the english text.

 

[revmwc]

The OP is basically requesting:

Which of the below do you hold to?:

pretribulation rapture
mid-tribulation rapture
post-tribulation rapture
partial rapture
pre-wrath rapture

In the next three posts, Iconoclast, kyredneck, and OUB all basically agreed on a last day rapture or general resurrection. Even though a last day rapture or general resurrection is not included on Zack's list, we three did actually address the OP.

Where in these next three voluminous posts of yours do you get around to actually addressing the OP? I can't seem to find which one you hold to:

pretribulation rapture?
mid-tribulation rapture?
post-tribulation rapture?
partial rapture?
pre-wrath rapture?

You must have missed this in the OP, "My goal here is to get a more direct argument from adherents of different views and see how you handle your view. I am by no means an expert in this area, so I will try to be as open but honest as possible.

Please be as detailed as you can using Scripture if possible to defend your view."
I just gave him backup for teh pre-trib, pre-mil view that you obviously missed too. Since Iconoclast, kyredneck, and OUB missed the part about detailing with scripture yopur view. OUB very seldom gives his view because he really doesn't want to debate things much. Iconolist will settle down and discuss the things and yet he hasn't posted scripture or that much detail with his view.

 

[zrs6v4]

I was taught that at first.....but now believe the rapture happens on the last day....mostly because Jesus speaks of raising people on the last day several times in jn 6.
the pre-mill system does not hold up scripturally.....although they offer verses...when you examine the verses they do not fit, but rather we are told to believe they fit...I could give many examples of this.

I remember as a small child assuming the rapture kicked off the 7 year tribulation period and all eschatological events, although in recent times for whatever reason have been drawn to a post trib perspective (probably for the wrong reasons). I took this class and have been somewhat directed towards pretrib rapture although I do not have a great grasp on it as I do other convictions therefore I don’t really even consider it a conviction.

we are told this represents the rapture of the church...there is the sound of the trumpet,,,,,andthen the church is not mentioned any more in rev.4-19… This is simply not true....the church is mentioned all through the book, and John himself is caught up in prophetic vision.

I am familiar with this claim. It simply states that the church is absent during the tribulation period (Rev. 4-19) because they are raptured. My question to you is where is the church mentioned in Revelation 4-19, just give a couple to discuss?

I do not like discussing numerous points at once so lets just keep it simple with my question above. It is likely that I do not agree with other passages you mentioned that I would like to get to later. I would also like to hear how you would respond with some of the objections to the post trib view that I have been presented with.

 

[zrs6v4]

I haven't decided exactly what the rapture IS yet, but I am certain that it is NOT the removal of the Church from the Earth.

Fair enough, why is it, "NOT the removal of the Church from the Earth?"

 

[zrs6v4]

To move things forward I have decided to lay out a defense I have been presented of the pretrib rapture along with the challenges to the post trib rapture due to it being one of the most common opposing view thus far.

First off, a consistant pretrib rapture from the professors I have heard it from adhere to traditional dispensational points of attack. I have often heard Ryrie’s 3 essentials quoted:

1. Distinction between Israel and the Church
2. grammatical-historical interpretation, often referred to as literal interpretation of Scripture. This is consistent hermeneutics that tend to start from Old to New rather than the opposite. Also it is necessary to mention that eschatological passages that are spiritualized or allegorized must not be unless the context proves otherwise. This allegorizing or spiritualizing is the flaw in Covenant Theology (or replacement theology) that ultimately comes to conclusions such as baptism replaces circumcision and so forth.
3. a doxological not simply a soteriological purpose in the world. God’s purpose is His own glory and salvation is at the pinnacle, although it must be recognized that God does have other purposes.

The basic Pretrib rapture defense:

1. 1 Thes. 4:13-5:10: This is a defense used by pretrib adherents that I do not find clear. They argue that Paul speaks chronologically of the rapture, then judgment (day of the Lord). I do not know if Day of the Lord here is speaking of His second return to destroy the anti-Christ or if Paul is using it to refer to the tribulation period (beginning of the wrath poured out on earth.
2. Revelation 3:10: The passage is where Christ said that He would keep them from the hour of testing. It is ironic that chapters 4-19 are all about the wrath and judgment on earth, but I can’t quite adhere to the pretrib view here either. Why would he tell this to a church who only experienced general tribulations? Is this to be taken to refer to the great tribulation period?
3. Revelation 4-19 does not speak of the church: If this is the case then this is one of the strong points to a pretrib rapture. In the traditional premill view there will be saints on earth during the tribulation but the body of Christ prior to the trib period will be raptured. Here is where the distinction between Israel and the Church seems a little important because saints does not always mean “Church”. There are OT saints, Church saints, and saints during the rapture. Does “saint” imply presence of the church?
4. 2 Thes. 2:6-8 “The restrainer”: It is said that the beginning of the eschatological events will start by the rapture and then the antichrist will appear. The defense simply states that the restrainer must mean the Church or the Holy Spirit’s work through the Church.
5. non-glorified believers must enter the millennium (literal 1,000 years): This point refers to the converts during the tribulation period including the 144,000 Jews and those who believe upon Christ’s second advent. This is said to be a problematic point for the post-trib adherents. If the rapture (also referred to as the resurrection) happens at Christ’s second coming then how do glorified believers reproduce during the millennium (Is. 65).

Further questions for post trib adherents:
1. Is there a national future for Israel?
2. How do you feel about the dispensational distinction between Israel and the Church?

 

[convicted1]

I am in the "amill" group, and here's why. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well in John chapter four, "My Father is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus also stated, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life".

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, the only way we can worship the Father, is through His Son, Jesus.

Now, in the "premill" stance, we are to have a physical body, like the one Jesus is to "supposedly" have. But in reality, we will have a most glorious body likened unto Jesus' body, which is a Spiritual body.

What I am trying to get at is this; y'all who hold to the MK(whether it be pre, mid, post, etc) have the kingdom set up here on earth. Y'all have two-thirds of the Godhead(God and Holy Spirit) as Spirits, and one-third(Jesus) with a "physical" body. If these three(God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit) are one{and they are}, then why does Jesus have a "physical" body", when the other two-thirds of the Trinity do not?? So, yes, we will get a Spiritual body, which is what Jesus has right now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Greek word for "like": homoios ὅμοιος G3664

Thayer's definition:
1) like, similar, resembling

a) like: i.e. resembling

b) like: i.e. corresponding to a thing

So in heaven, we will have a Spiritual body, just like God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit have. I leave you with this one last verse, that I think shows you where the kingdom is:

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

When God saves a sinner, He places the Kingdom within them at that moment.

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

 

[lastday]

When are the Elect Gathered Above?

To move things forward I have decided to lay out a defense I have been presented of the pretrib rapture along with the challenges to the post trib rapture due to it being one of the most common opposing view thus far.

First off, a consistant pretrib rapture from the professors I have heard it from adhere to traditional dispensational points of attack. I have often heard Ryrie’s 3 essentials quoted:

1. Distinction between Israel and the Church
2. grammatical-historical interpretation, often referred to as literal interpretation of Scripture. This is consistent hermeneutics that tend to start from Old to New rather than the opposite. Also it is necessary to mention that eschatological passages that are spiritualized or allegorized must not be unless the context proves otherwise. This allegorizing or spiritualizing is the flaw in Covenant Theology (or replacement theology) that ultimately comes to conclusions such as baptism replaces circumcision and so forth.
3. a doxological not simply a soteriological purpose in the world. God’s purpose is His own glory and salvation is at the pinnacle, although it must be recognized that God does have other purposes.

The basic Pretrib rapture defense:

1. 1 Thes. 4:13-5:10: This is a defense used by pretrib adherents that I do not find clear. They argue that Paul speaks chronologically of the rapture, then judgment (day of the Lord). I do not know if Day of the Lord here is speaking of His second return to destroy the anti-Christ or if Paul is using it to refer to the tribulation period (beginning of the wrath poured out on earth.
2. Revelation 3:10: The passage is where Christ said that He would keep them from the hour of testing. It is ironic that chapters 4-19 are all about the wrath and judgment on earth, but I can’t quite adhere to the pretrib view here either. Why would he tell this to a church who only experienced general tribulations? Is this to be taken to refer to the great tribulation period?
3. Revelation 4-19 does not speak of the church: If this is the case then this is one of the strong points to a pretrib rapture. In the traditional premill view there will be saints on earth during the tribulation but the body of Christ prior to the trib period will be raptured. Here is where the distinction between Israel and the Church seems a little important because saints does not always mean “Church”. There are OT saints, Church saints, and saints during the rapture. Does “saint” imply presence of the church?
4. 2 Thes. 2:6-8 “The restrainer”: It is said that the beginning of the eschatological events will start by the rapture and then the antichrist will appear. The defense simply states that the restrainer must mean the Church or the Holy Spirit’s work through the Church.
5. non-glorified believers must enter the millennium (literal 1,000 years): This point refers to the converts during the tribulation period including the 144,000 Jews and those who believe upon Christ’s second advent. This is said to be a problematic point for the post-trib adherents. If the rapture (also referred to as the resurrection) happens at Christ’s second coming then how do glorified believers reproduce during the millennium (Is. 65).

Further questions for post trib adherents:
1. Is there a national future for Israel?
2. How do you feel about the dispensational distinction between Israel and the Church?

Mel's Response:
1. I Thess.4:13-17 - Pre-Tribbers assume that those who "come with Jesus, having died in the Lord", do not include Tribulation Saints! They also assume
there must be a period of years between the resurrection of Church Saints
and the resurrection of Tribulation Saints!! It allows uncertain categorization of truth so that only Tribulation Saints can be "raised up on the Last Day"!!!
John 6:38-40,44,54.

Instead, Jesus taught that He will "gather the Elect from earth to the ends of heaven on the four winds (of earth's atmosphere) AFTER the G.T."
Mark 13:24-27.

2. Rev.3:10-11. These two verses together are connected to Christ's return
but not to a period of "wrath" and God's wrath begins "after 7 Plagues exhaust His patience"!
The Greek word translated "wrath" regarding the 7 Last Plagues actually means "patience" for it is "thumos" which is part of the compound word "macro-thumos"...meaning a long period of patience!! Rev.15:1; Rev.16:1.
The TESTING of all mankind both here and in Luke 21:34-36 is limited to the single Day of God's Wrath which is announced as "having come after chronos- time is no longer and the mystery of God was finished (past tense) and it is the only appointed kairos-time to judge the saints, small and great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth"!!!
Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,18.

3. The "Prayers of the Saints" are mentioned in Rev.5, before any of the Seals are described; mentioned in Seal 7 after the Signs of the single Day
of Wrath occur; and are verbalized by the Martyrs in the 5th Seal!
Rev.5:8; Rev.8:1-5; Rev.6:9-10.
These Martyrs will NOT be "avenged until the last one who must be killed has been killed"!! Rev.6:11.
This means God's wrath upon the wicked awaits the death of the very Last Martyr and the very Last Day...the Day on which Jesus promised to "raise up ALL believers", and at the 7th Trumpet, "to judge and reward all the Saints and to destroy those who are destroying the earth"!!!
John 6:38-40,44,54; Rev.11:18.

4. The Restrainer will be removed to allow the Antichrist to be revealed! Early Church Fathers agreed this refers to the failure of Lawful Government which will occur at the destruction of Babylon the Great at the start of 42 months of Great Tribulation!! This happens 1263 or 1264 days before the Hour of Trial on the Day of Wrath...that Day that includes the Wrath announced by the 7th Trumpet as "having come"...together with the "appointed time to judge and reward the OT Prophets and NT Saints, both small and great, and to destroy the wicked"!!!

Christ will appear to redeem ALL of Israel either 3 or 4 days after the Two Prophets are killed on Day #1260...after they lie dead for 3.5 days. Rev.11:7-11.

5. The "non-glorified" bodies who enter the Millennium do NOT include the
144,000 who are "first-fruits unto God and the Lamb"! Rev.14:1-5.
They are caught up to witness before God and the Lamb in the 7th Seal Court of Justice on the Last DaY!!
Those who enter the Millennium in non-glorified bodies are the "Remnant of Israel" who will be saved too late to be members of the Bride of Christ; but who are "kept alive" because they "mourn and beg for mercy" when they see Christ coming with ALL the Saints ON THE DAY OF HIS APOCALYPSE"!!!
Luke 17:30-33; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; Rom.11:25-26; Rev.1:7.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

[zrs6v4]

Mel,

Thanks for the well thought out response. This gives me a lot to chew on and you've mentioned many aspects I have not had time to consider. With that said, I have no response at this time. I will let others respond if they choose to and will respond when I have time to look over your conclusions.

 

[zrs6v4]

I am in the "amill" group, and here's why. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well in John chapter four, "My Father is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."
.....
Now, in the "premill" stance, we are to have a physical body, like the one Jesus is to "supposedly" have. But in reality, we will have a most glorious body likened unto Jesus' body, which is a Spiritual body.
.....
So in heaven, we will have a Spiritual body, just like God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit have. I leave you with this one last verse, that I think shows you where the kingdom is:

Willis, thanks for your response. You do not believe in a literal 1,000 year reign (millenium) because premillenialists do not uphold a more spiritual existence to the eternal state?

I hope I follow and I cannot speak for all views, but your argument seems like it can be disproved fairly easy. For one, Jesus was resurrected to a glorified "physical" body. A spiritual body is completely unseen or without physical elements. I believe we will be like Jesus in His glorified state but will be in some sense a different physical creation with new boundaries. Lastly, In John 4 I do not think the context supports your argument. It seems as though Jesus was emphasizing the New Covenant kind of worship where God's Spirit will dwell within His people and they will worship Him directly and personally rather than a temple or a specific mountain.

Since we are on the topic of the millenium. I have heard it said that there is no evidence in Revelation 19 to deny a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. How would an amillenialist or other opposing views respond to that charge?

 

[Iconoclast]

Since we are on the topic of the millenium. I have heard it said that there is no evidence in Revelation 19 to deny a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. How would an amillenialist or other opposing views respond to that charge?
__________________

where does it say He reigns on the earth?

 

[webdog]

where does it say He reigns on the earth?

Where is the Mount of Olives? Where was David's thrown located?

 

[Iconoclast]

Where is the Mount of Olives? Where was David's thrown located?

Was.....is the operative word WD.
He reigns from the heavenly Jerusalem now.

WD.....in Rev 20 we are told of the thousand year reign....the question is..where does it say the reign cannot be from heaven, but must be on earth?

Peter in acts 2 says;

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

revmac...jf here is another link to consider
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/amil.html

 

[zrs6v4]

where does it say He reigns on the earth?

Revelation 20. It is said, as you know Christ fulfills the davidic throne at this point upon his second coming.