What do you believe about the rapture and why?

Let me see if I can answer without the same ramblings as this. I'll edit out what makes no sense so maybe we can get to the heart of this.

You seem to be saying that iconoclast said "...premill brethren have posted the view that links random verses together link a house of cards....","and he's dead on spot"
So if we pull verses together to make a house of cardss that would be like trying to prove a doctrine by pulling all sorts of verses together to prove it, then you posted a bunch of verses that made no sense and there was nothing to qualify what you were trying to get acroos with all those verses, mumbo jumbo is all you did.
So I said let's look at this since you and as you say iconolist seem not to believe we should try and prove a doctrine by linking random verses let's see if this is what you mean.
We shouldn't try to prove soteriology by pullingrandom verses to prove how someone is to get saved.

So we cannot prove soteriology (doctrine of salvation) in this way by you statement:
John says this about salvation:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Luke wrote in the book of Acts what Paul said to the Phillipian Jailer, Acts 16:30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house

Paul himself said in Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But this is according to what you say iconolist is saying, "view that links random verses together link a house of cards" and yet these verses fit together to show salvation.
Putting precept upon precept line upon line so we can be comparing spiritual to spiritual.

We must be able to prove verses with other verses in order to see the fullness of the Holy Spirits revelation. When every one fits together to show the point being made the Spirit will reveal the truth. You threw a bunch of scripture together trying to prove that whne that is done it is linking "random verses together link a house of cards" but that was a very feeble attempt.
Paul used scripture upon scripture to prove the message He preached, we are to use scripture to prove spiritual truth even when it means bringing passages together that link the doctrine being taught.

Where the problem comes in at is if someone disagrees with the way it is pulled togther because it goes against their doctrinal beliefs. To prove we are once saved always saved we must pull verses together in the sanme manner. So to say pulling them together and they make "a house of cards" just doesn't fly to refute the scriptures that are brought out. You must be able to prove them wrong by other scriptures which prove them wrong, so far without throwing in well that doesn't apply to that doesn't do it, prove how it doesn't apply.

 

The scriptures (the letter) teaches us absolutely NOTHING. They serve only one purpose, and that is to give us a way to articulate what the Spirit is teaching us.
(pure PB doctrine there J.D.)

 

Hello REVMAC,

You are presenting the premill view accurately. It does not disturb me in that as long as we all keep in mind we are called to this:

REVMAC......you would not be disappointed if the postmill, or amill view were correct would you?
Believers must be content with whatever God has planned to do.
I am okay with Historic premill......or if it were possible that the dispy premill was the truth it would be fine with me.
No matter what prophetic calendar we hold to....we are to Adorn the doctrine of Christ and seek to be used of God to win the lost in the providence of God.

Revmac.....have you given an honest read to some of the reformers and puritans and how they looked for the gospel to be victorious in this world despite sin and Satan?

Initially I just rejected these ideas without trying to understand how these older brothers viewed the scripture.

Scriptural study is always good. I believe Isa28 was speaking of those who held a profane view of the written word,and God used Him to call them back to truth.

 

I have said the one constant we have is that if we are truly saved we will see each other in Heaven. Haven't read that much of the reformers some but not all. Most like Luther were ostracized for their beliefs many put to death. Tyndale died for bring the bible into the vulgar english language but God had plans for the bible in that language. Wycliffes bones were dug up and dressed in his priest clothing to be defrocked and have his bones burned and ashes poured into a river.
I have seen some but not that much of the reformers. I have always depended more on Paul and the Apostles writing with the O.T. and N.T. writters to see doctrines. Some things the Pastor I was brought up under taught I don't follow today because it doesn't align with scripture. So if scripture can't fit into place without a lot of twisting then I have ahardtime with it, the Catching up of the church pre-tribulation fits real well with each scripture you align with the other on, It is to me too hard to miss, but I realize you and the others hold that it is a lot to twist, and yet you twist things to say they aren't for the church or they are metaphorical. To me when you have to explain a scripture away by saying it is not literal but scriptural or metaphorical because it doesn't fit your doctrine you have a problem. We won't ever convince each other but we do effect those who read what we write.

 

revmac,

Some things are literal yes....
some things are spiritual....yes
some metaphorical...yes

Explaining away a verse helps no one. I think that we have to be able to distinguish how these things interact.....
keep in Mind the Jews in Jesus day...many times missed the spiritual nature of the Kingdom,and how it relates to the literal physical world.....

it is not either or, but both

here is some postmill ideas on this site
http://americanvision.org/category/eschatology/post-pre-millennialism/

 

The OP is basically requesting:

Which of the below do you hold to?:

pretribulation rapture
mid-tribulation rapture
post-tribulation rapture
partial rapture
pre-wrath rapture

In the next three posts, Iconoclast, kyredneck, and OUB all basically agreed on a last day rapture or general resurrection. Even though a last day rapture or general resurrection is not included on Zack's list, we three did actually address the OP.

Where in these next three voluminous posts of yours do you get around to actually addressing the OP? I can't seem to find which one you hold to:

pretribulation rapture?
mid-tribulation rapture?
post-tribulation rapture?
partial rapture?
pre-wrath rapture?

 

Why do so many men not understand these basic hermeneutic facts? The languages & literary tools used in the writing of the Word are VERY different from our own & must be interpreted in light of these facts. But then, it would not be so easy to read our own beliefs into the english text.

 

You must have missed this in the OP, "My goal here is to get a more direct argument from adherents of different views and see how you handle your view. I am by no means an expert in this area, so I will try to be as open but honest as possible.

Please be as detailed as you can using Scripture if possible to defend your view."
I just gave him backup for teh pre-trib, pre-mil view that you obviously missed too. Since Iconoclast, kyredneck, and OUB missed the part about detailing with scripture yopur view. OUB very seldom gives his view because he really doesn't want to debate things much. Iconolist will settle down and discuss the things and yet he hasn't posted scripture or that much detail with his view.

 

I am in the "amill" group, and here's why. Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well in John chapter four, "My Father is a Spirit, and those who worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Jesus also stated, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life".

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, the only way we can worship the Father, is through His Son, Jesus.

Now, in the "premill" stance, we are to have a physical body, like the one Jesus is to "supposedly" have. But in reality, we will have a most glorious body likened unto Jesus' body, which is a Spiritual body.

What I am trying to get at is this; y'all who hold to the MK(whether it be pre, mid, post, etc) have the kingdom set up here on earth. Y'all have two-thirds of the Godhead(God and Holy Spirit) as Spirits, and one-third(Jesus) with a "physical" body. If these three(God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit) are one{and they are}, then why does Jesus have a "physical" body", when the other two-thirds of the Trinity do not?? So, yes, we will get a Spiritual body, which is what Jesus has right now.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Greek word for "like": homoios ὅμοιος G3664

Thayer's definition:
1) like, similar, resembling

a) like: i.e. resembling

b) like: i.e. corresponding to a thing

So in heaven, we will have a Spiritual body, just like God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit have. I leave you with this one last verse, that I think shows you where the kingdom is:

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

When God saves a sinner, He places the Kingdom within them at that moment.

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

 

When are the Elect Gathered Above?

Mel's Response:
1. I Thess.4:13-17 - Pre-Tribbers assume that those who "come with Jesus, having died in the Lord", do not include Tribulation Saints! They also assume
there must be a period of years between the resurrection of Church Saints
and the resurrection of Tribulation Saints!! It allows uncertain categorization of truth so that only Tribulation Saints can be "raised up on the Last Day"!!!
John 6:38-40,44,54.

Instead, Jesus taught that He will "gather the Elect from earth to the ends of heaven on the four winds (of earth's atmosphere) AFTER the G.T."
Mark 13:24-27.

2. Rev.3:10-11. These two verses together are connected to Christ's return
but not to a period of "wrath" and God's wrath begins "after 7 Plagues exhaust His patience"!
The Greek word translated "wrath" regarding the 7 Last Plagues actually means "patience" for it is "thumos" which is part of the compound word "macro-thumos"...meaning a long period of patience!! Rev.15:1; Rev.16:1.
The TESTING of all mankind both here and in Luke 21:34-36 is limited to the single Day of God's Wrath which is announced as "having come after chronos- time is no longer and the mystery of God was finished (past tense) and it is the only appointed kairos-time to judge the saints, small and great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth"!!!
Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,18.

3. The "Prayers of the Saints" are mentioned in Rev.5, before any of the Seals are described; mentioned in Seal 7 after the Signs of the single Day
of Wrath occur; and are verbalized by the Martyrs in the 5th Seal!
Rev.5:8; Rev.8:1-5; Rev.6:9-10.
These Martyrs will NOT be "avenged until the last one who must be killed has been killed"!! Rev.6:11.
This means God's wrath upon the wicked awaits the death of the very Last Martyr and the very Last Day...the Day on which Jesus promised to "raise up ALL believers", and at the 7th Trumpet, "to judge and reward all the Saints and to destroy those who are destroying the earth"!!!
John 6:38-40,44,54; Rev.11:18.

4. The Restrainer will be removed to allow the Antichrist to be revealed! Early Church Fathers agreed this refers to the failure of Lawful Government which will occur at the destruction of Babylon the Great at the start of 42 months of Great Tribulation!! This happens 1263 or 1264 days before the Hour of Trial on the Day of Wrath...that Day that includes the Wrath announced by the 7th Trumpet as "having come"...together with the "appointed time to judge and reward the OT Prophets and NT Saints, both small and great, and to destroy the wicked"!!!

Christ will appear to redeem ALL of Israel either 3 or 4 days after the Two Prophets are killed on Day #1260...after they lie dead for 3.5 days. Rev.11:7-11.

5. The "non-glorified" bodies who enter the Millennium do NOT include the
144,000 who are "first-fruits unto God and the Lamb"! Rev.14:1-5.
They are caught up to witness before God and the Lamb in the 7th Seal Court of Justice on the Last DaY!!
Those who enter the Millennium in non-glorified bodies are the "Remnant of Israel" who will be saved too late to be members of the Bride of Christ; but who are "kept alive" because they "mourn and beg for mercy" when they see Christ coming with ALL the Saints ON THE DAY OF HIS APOCALYPSE"!!!
Luke 17:30-33; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; Rom.11:25-26; Rev.1:7.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

where does it say He reigns on the earth?

 

Where is the Mount of Olives? Where was David's thrown located?

 

Was.....is the operative word WD.
He reigns from the heavenly Jerusalem now.

WD.....in Rev 20 we are told of the thousand year reign....the question is..where does it say the reign cannot be from heaven, but must be on earth?

Peter in acts 2 says;

revmac...jf here is another link to consider
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/amil.html