What do you believe is required for Salvation?

[Thinkingstuff]

No, it isn't unless you understand that choice when it comes to natural man simply means that he will never choose God when presented with he option. The Bible teaches that very clearly as I have pointed out.

Don't confuse the teaching of scripture with your particular view point or colored glases. How you aproach the bible in understanding is also tradition. If what you say were true the passages would not be in the bible.

choose this day whom you will serve ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord ... you are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." (Joshua 24:15,22)

therefore choose life, that both you and your descendents may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days."

therefore choose life, that both you and your descendents may live; that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days."

And even in the quisential verse for salvation " whom so ever believes" indicates that there is a responsibility of choice for us. Webdog has shown verse showing God coming to reason with man.

This is not true at all according to Scripture. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

irrelevant to the discussion. No one said without faith people please God. We said they chose right or good over evil. Look around Many unsaved people do the right and good thing and not all with evil intent. Mothers love their children. Atheist adopt children to make the children lives better. Many Wealthy who apose God feed the poor etc... We can go on and on. In your senario only the elect would do this. However, in practicality we see people selflessly lay down their lives for others. It happens. Which is why it makes Christianity a "hard sell" for these people. Because they see how sinful christians act and see the relatively less sin in others and say Christianity is not superior. People are created in God's image and there is enough left over for man to do good things as well as evil. All original sin did was give us a propensity or a leaning towards sinful behavior. When given a chance to sin we do it more often then not. But that doesn't mean there are times we chose to do right.

Nothing is pure without faith.

do you go to the toilet in faith? I doubt it.

Everything apart from faith is sin.

Not true. Many things are just nuetral.

This is the clear teaching of Scripture

.Its certainly how you view it but not so. Anything regarding God and salvation needs faith. But I don't glorify God when I go to the toilet. Its a neutral activity. It doesn't require faith.

The natural man cannot tie his shoes without it being evil and depraved.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. You can say while a man is tying his shoe he is in a sinful state but the act of tying the shoe is not a depravity. I think you confuse things.

This is, again, wrong.

You either don't life in the world or you don't make observations . Because it is correct.

My 7 yr old son might act arrogant towards me at times. I may try to prove that he has no cause to be arrogant before his father. I will say to him, "Rick, go and get one of your cans of pediasure and bring it here." He will then hand it to me for me to open it for him as is the custom. I will push it away and say, "You open it," knowing that he cannot. He will try and try but not be able to and finally collapse in utter exhaustion and frustration. His arrogant comments will cease. His mouth will be stopped.

I hope he doesn't base his self worth on this theology. Because you take out this aspect. God loves him and he has worth if for nothing else than he was made in the Creator's image. I hope he doesn't get to the point of believing that only a special class of elected people are loved by God. That can cause two reactions. A false supperiority feeling or a inferior one depending on where he finds himself.

I have told him to do what he cannot to show him that he has no cause to boast before me.

For those of us that already believe in God and have faith I believe God is proud when we do his will as Jesus parables so keenly point out.

God tells natural man to do thousands of things that he cannot do to prove to natural man that he is not what he thinks he is.

I think you need to do some work on what natural man means in the context of the NT.

Yes there is. And the Bible teaches total depravity- not just a simple proclivity to sin.

It may seem that way to you but that is because you're coming at it from an already formed idea. Rather than studying what the text says. I believe the bible does not teach total depravity but calvin did.

 

[Luke2427]

Don't confuse the teaching of scripture with your particular view point or colored glases. How you aproach the bible in understanding is also tradition.

I am not. The Bible is extraordinarily clear. Man is utterly depraved. even his righteousnesses are filthy rags before God. His carnal mind is not subject unto the law of God neither can it be. This is the Word of God.

If what you say were true the passages would not be in the bible. And even in the quisential verse for salvation " whom so ever believes" indicates that there is a responsibility of choice for us. Webdog has shown verse showing God coming to reason with man.

Man must believe to be saved. No doubt about that. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. No doubt.

But Grace and Faith are gifts of God he grants to his elect.

For by grace are ye saved through faith AND THAT not of yourselves- it is the gift of God...

"And that" refers to faith. Faith is the gift of God.

irrelevant to the discussion. No one said without faith people please God. We said they chose right or good over evil.

No it is not. The Bible says if it is not of faith it is sin. Period.

Look around Many unsaved people do the right and good thing and not all with evil intent. Mothers love their children. Atheist adopt children to make the children lives better. Many Wealthy who apose God feed the poor etc... We can go on and on.

All of these things you cite that natural men do are done for the vilest of motives. For themselves and the human race- not for God. To do any work without God and his glory as the primary motive is wickedness in the highest degree.

The greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. The second only comes after the first. To use the strength he gave you in a way that does not honor him is evil regardless of how beneficial it is to the human race.

Let your light so shine before men that the y may see your good works and GLORIFY YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

Good works glorify something- always. If they glorify something besides God then the good works are idol worship. The idol may be the human race or self- but to do something with no desire to glorify God is to break the greatest commandment, to be guilty of the greatest crime and to incur upon one's self the greatest consequence.

This is why the natural man is hourly storing up wrath against the day of wrath (Romans 2:5).

Who cares if his deeds are acceptable horizontally if they are reprehensible vertically?

In your senario only the elect would do this.

ONLY the elect seek the glory of God in their deeds. Therefore, only the deeds of the elect are accepted of God.

However, in practicality we see people selflessly lay down their lives for others. It happens.

With wicked, godless motives. Proverbs reminds us that the sacrifice of the wicked is abomination before God.

Though one gives his body to be burned and has not charity (the love of God as the first commandment demands and the love of the neighbor which comes only after the first) he is nothing.

Which is why it makes Christianity a "hard sell" for these people.

It is a hard sell because they have hard self centered, man centered hearts. It is a hard sell because they do not fear God. It is a hard sell because they CANNOT receive the things of God in their natural state as Scripture makes abundantly clear.

All original sin did was give us a propensity or a leaning towards sinful behavior. When given a chance to sin we do it more often then not.

Support this with Bible.

do you go to the toilet in faith? I doubt it. Not true. Many things are just nuetral.

Whether ye eat or drink or whatsoever ye do- do ALL to the glory of God.

Interpret that.

The fact of the matter is that EVERYTHING done outside of faith is sin.

.Its certainly how you view it but not so. Anything regarding God and salvation needs faith. But I don't glorify God when I go to the toilet. Its a neutral activity. It doesn't require faith.

Same.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. You can say while a man is tying his shoe he is in a sinful state but the act of tying the shoe is not a depravity. I think you confuse things.

His motive for tying his shoes is wicked. What he intends to do when he ties his shoes is not for God's glory. He is going to go forth and please himself or others with no concern as to what his Maker wants of him. He is going to go forth and use the breath that God gives him to continually undermine his responsibility to his maker.

The tying of his shoes is wickedness before a Holy God.

 

[Luke2427]

irrelevant to the discussion. No one said without faith people please God. We said they chose right or good over evil. Look around Many unsaved people do the right and good thing and not all with evil intent. Mothers love their children. Atheist adopt children to make the children lives better. Many Wealthy who apose God feed the poor etc... We can go on and on. In your senario only the elect would do this. However, in practicality we see people selflessly lay down their lives for others. It happens. Which is why it makes Christianity a "hard sell" for these people. Because they see how sinful christians act and see the relatively less sin in others and say Christianity is not superior. People are created in God's image and there is enough left over for man to do good things as well as evil. All original sin did was give us a propensity or a leaning towards sinful behavior. When given a chance to sin we do it more often then not. But that doesn't mean there are times we chose to do right.

.

Total Depravity is not Calvinism- it is Bible. The idea that EVERYTHING that the unregenerate do is wickedness is all through the Bible.

Genesis 8:21 the intentions of mans heart is evil from his youth.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 the hearts of the children of men are full of evil and madness is in their hearts while they live.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked who can know it?

Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving NOTHING IS PURE but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Job 15:14-16 What is man that he can be pure or he who is born of a woman that he can be righteous? Behold God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water?

And this should settle the matter for good. The Lord Jesus Christ himself says of natural man

Matthew 7:16-18 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes or thorns of thistles? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the evil tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor CAN a diseased tree bear good fruit.


The Bible is clear. Not Calvinism- the Word of God. Everything that the unregenerate does and thinks is sinful.

Even what we consider to be a noble endeavor, plowing- working industriously to provide for one's own, is sin.

Proverbs 21:4 ... and the plowing of the wicked is sin.

 

[Luke2427]

I hope he doesn't base his self worth on this theology. Because you take out this aspect. God loves him and he has worth if for nothing else than he was made in the Creator's image. I hope he doesn't get to the point of believing that only a special class of elected people are loved by God. That can cause two reactions. A false supperiority feeling or a inferior one depending on where he finds himself.

I think this is strange. I don't know what it has to do with the anecdote given.

The point is that I can tell my son to do things he cannot do to prove a point- to show him what he really is.

God does the same. God has given many commandments to men that they cannot keep to show man what he really is.

Therefore the law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Can you not see that God absolutely DOES command us to do things that we cannot do?

If so, why insist that God would never tell us to do something that we cannot do and then say that he would be wasting his breath to do so?

Obviously God tells us to do what we cannot do to show what we really are.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well said Luke.....Indeed a true Gospel Warrior!

Here is what the lot dont understand, The whole emphasis is upon what God does to us: not what man does, but what God does to us; not our hold of Him but 'His strong grasp of us'.

Brother Luke, scripture says "In no way be alarmed by your opponents" I appreciate your posts & will read some of those books & articles you suggested privately..... Keep fighting for the true faith dear brother!

Jesus Saves

 

[webdog]

Well said Luke.....Indeed a true Gospel Warrior!

Here is what the lot dont understand, The whole emphasis is upon what God does to us: not what man does, but what God does to us; not our hold of Him but 'His strong grasp of us'.

Brother Luke, scripture says "In no way be alarmed by your opponents" I appreciate your posts & will read some of those books & articles you suggested privately..... Keep fighting for the true faith dear brother!

Jesus Saves

Complete strawman. Your camp doesn't hold the patent on "what God does to us".

Only a calvinist would consider anyone not one an "opponent" instead of a brother You sound like a Sith Lord.

The "true faith" is salvation by grace alone through Christ alone...not your mechanics on how you arrive to that.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Only a calvinist would consider anyone not one an "opponent" instead of a brother You sound like a Sith Lord.

Even an "opponent" can be a "brother" in a theological disagreement. I don't know of any saved people who are instant theologions when they were born again. I didn't even know what election was when I was saved. The experience of salvation is God revealing to you that you are a sinner and that Christ is the sufficient provision for your salvation and embracing that revelation from God by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ as revealed in the gospel. You may not believe in unconditional election but if you have received that revelation from God and embraced it with repentance and faith you are my "brother" even though you may be also my "opponent" in this particular discussion.

 

[Winman]

The Bible is clear. Not Calvinism- the Word of God. Everything that the unregenerate does and thinks is sinful.

False. Unregenerate man can do many good things, Jesus himself said so.

Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

In verse 32 Jesus says sinners can love. In verse 33 Jesus says sinners can do good. No, he said sinners actually love and do good!

Loving people that love you is not evil, it is good. But Jesus is saying it is even greater to love those that do not love you. However, this does not negate that loving those that love you is good, it is. And doing good to those who do good to you is good, although it is even better to do good to those who do not do good to you. Still, it is always good to do good to anyone, anytime.

God said Cain could do well and would be accepted. I hardly believe God would accept something sinful.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain was unregenerate, yet God himself said he could do well. Cain was not enslaved to sin, God said Cain would rule over sin.

When the scriptures say that every imagination of man was evil, that is not saying man is incapable of having good imaginations, it is simply stating the fact that at that time every man's imagination was evil.

Gen 5:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 5:5 does not say or teach that unregenerate man is utterly incapable of doing any good. You are teaching this verse to say something it does not say.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

We are all evil, we are all sinners, but Jesus said we know how to give "good" gifts. Jesus knew what he was saying, if unregenerate man is utterly incapable of doing any good things, Jesus would not have said this.

When Jesus said there is none good but God, he is speaking of perfect righteousness. No one but God is completely without sin. But that does not mean that unregenerate man is utterly incapable of doing some good things.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are pitting scriptures against scriptures. You know very well that Jesus also said "there is none good but one and that is God" and that Paul said "there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Therefore, in order to harmonize these scriptures there must be two different definitions of "good" or we have the Bible contradicting the the Bible.

In those contexts where it is clearly and explicitly denied that man can do "good" it has reference to the unregenerated man and in regard to the doctrine of justification.

In those contexts where it is clearly and explicitly stated that man can do "good" it is in the context of relative "good" as perceived by men or God produced "good" through regenerated men.

In the context of justification in regard to unregenerated men, it is a denial of intrinsic good or the ability to do anything from the right motive "the glory of God" as sin is "coming short of the glory of God."

In regard to relative goodness or comparative goodness among men there are certain "good" versus "evil" men and all levels in between.

False. Unregenerate man can do many good things, Jesus himself said so.

Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

In verse 32 Jesus says sinners can love. In verse 33 Jesus says sinners can do good. No, he said sinners actually love and do good!

Loving people that love you is not evil, it is good. But Jesus is saying it is even greater to love those that do not love you. However, this does not negate that loving those that love you is good, it is. And doing good to those who do good to you is good, although it is even better to do good to those who do not do good to you. Still, it is always good to do good to anyone, anytime.

God said Cain could do well and would be accepted. I hardly believe God would accept something sinful.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain was unregenerate, yet God himself said he could do well. Cain was not enslaved to sin, God said Cain would rule over sin.

When the scriptures say that every imagination of man was evil, that is not saying man is incapable of having good imaginations, it is simply stating the fact that at that time every man's imagination was evil.

Gen 5:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 5:5 does not say or teach that unregenerate man is utterly incapable of doing any good. You are teaching this verse to say something it does not say.

Matt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

We are all evil, we are all sinners, but Jesus said we know how to give "good" gifts. Jesus knew what he was saying, if unregenerate man is utterly incapable of doing any good things, Jesus would not have said this.

When Jesus said there is none good but God, he is speaking of perfect righteousness. No one but God is completely without sin. But that does not mean that unregenerate man is utterly incapable of doing some good things.

 

[DHK]

In regard to relative goodness or comparative goodness among men there are certain "good" versus "evil" men and all levels in between.

In regard to relative goodness it is good that we close this thread after 35 pages of debate, well after a limit of 30 pages.