What do you call a Christian...

[John Wells]

The lines divide in this debate just like they did in the alcohol issue. In the final analysis, some people are just not willing to give up "everything" to be transformed and conformed to Christ. I'm not talking about attaining perfection, but the heart felt desire to do so. We all have our little areas of "worldliness" that we want to cling to. That clinging indicates our unwillingness to "forsake all, and follow Him!"

Enjoying reading erotic scenes is pure and simple "lite porn." As to Song of Songs, that was God's writing. Based on reasonings given here, we should be able to do anything God did! Right? God destroyed the evil ridden towns of Soddom and Gamorrah. Let us Christians decend on "Sin City" (Las Vegas) and destroy it with our own hands? God did it. It's in the Bible. Hopefully you see how silly your "because God did it" really is. The world has enough problems with sexuality. It's fixated on it. It's everywhere you turn your head. That should be all believers need to desire to be "set apart" from what is most important to the world. Believers wanting to dabble in it under the auspice of "Christian writings" had better reconsider how Satan works to counterfeit evil as good! As you carefully and prayerfully read the following passage, consider that Jesus said that sin begins with our thoughts. How can you read a graphic erotic scene without this guilt of sin?

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body (mind, heart, strength). -- 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (NIV)

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by blackbird:
To any potential reader who happens by--I will do my best to discourage you from reading Christian fiction which contains graphic or even glancing scenes of sex--whether it be sex among husband and wife or sex between two potential lovers--I will discourage anyone from going on in that book.

So erotic writing is wrong... (Or you just don't want people reading things that you don't like.)

Oh, sure! The Song of Soloman! No denying--its there! But folks, you have to remember--that book is God talking--its God breathed!! Infallabe! Inspired! Inerrant! A husband needs to read that book--a wife needs to study Song of Soloman!

So erotic writing is right... (In fact, God gave us erotic writing!)

But we need to leave fiction containing sexual exploration alone--

So erotic writing is wrong again... especially if it is not a record of a literally true event.

Authors--dare to be a Daniel!! Say to the world and to yourselves--"I can write that book without having to include that scene of sex or murder or whatever--and I will be honored by God Almighty by doing so!! I don't have to put what the world wants to read in there! I can sell just as many books or more without it as the world can with it!"

Ah... an insinuation that the scene(s) are included to make the book popular -- not necessarily true at all. There's also a hint that an erotic scene is similar to a description of murder -- both considered as negative things.

IS EROTIC WRITING RIGHT OR WRONG? Your answer seems to be that it is right only when it is in the Bible, but no one should read or write anything that could possibly be erotic.

Of course there doesn't seem to be any Biblical mandate for your view unless you assume that sexual relations are somehow inherently evil. I can't accept that view because it contradicts scripture.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by John Wells:
The lines divide in this debate just like they did in the alcohol issue.

I agree. This thread pits those who recognize that there is clear biblical teaching that supports the responsible use of alcohol as both a beverage and medication as well as a living example of the proper use of alcohol, Jesus Christ, against those who have adopted an extra-biblical view that demands abstinence from alcohol. Those who do not agree with the abstinence position are considered as somehow inferior to those who follow the biblical guidelines.

In the final analysis, some people are just not willing to give up "everything" to be transformed and conformed to Christ. I'm not talking about attaining perfection, but the heart felt desire to do so. We all have our little areas of "worldliness" that we want to cling to. That clinging indicates our unwillingness to "forsake all, and follow Him!"

Hmm... That's your "final analysis"?

From the context, I'm assuming you're referring to my position negatively. In your view, those who believe as I do:

1.) "are just not willing to give up "everything" to be transformed and conformed to Christ" - nice bit of false judgment there
2.) lack "the heart felt desire to [be transformed]" - wrong again
3.) "have little areas of 'worldliness' that we want to cling to" - of course you have not demonstrated that erotic writing is "worldliness"

Enjoying reading erotic scenes is pure and simple "lite porn."

Um, no... Unless you want to consider part of the Old Testament as "porn".

As to Song of Songs, that was God's writing. Based on reasonings given here, we should be able to do anything God did! Right?

Wrong.

God destroyed the evil ridden towns of Soddom and Gamorrah. Let us Christians decend on "Sin City" (Las Vegas) and destroy it with our own hands? God did it. It's in the Bible. Hopefully you see how silly your "because God did it" really is.

That's not my view or my argument. (I'm not going to belabor the issue, but even if that was my position, your analogy is full of holes -- writing is creating, you example is an example of destruction of someone else's property.)

I think I've expressed my position fairly well in previous posts, but here are the main points again.

1.) Sexuality is a gift of God.
2.) The Song of Solomon gives us an example of erotic writing that properly celebrates sexuality.
3.) People are created in the image of God. Part of that image is a creative drive. Those of us who write as a creative outlet should express the fullness of the Christian experience in our writing.
4.) Erotic writings are not forbidden since we have a biblical example of that type of writing.

The world has enough problems with sexuality. It's fixated on it. It's everywhere you turn your head.

That's why a Christian perspective of sexuality is needed so desperately.

That should be all believers need to desire to be "set apart" from what is most important to the world.

The only biblical "separation" for a Christian is to be separated from the idolatry and worldly thought that pervades society. Pastors should preach on sexual issues. Writers should not avoid writing about sexual things.

Believers wanting to dabble in it under the auspice of "Christian writings" had better reconsider how Satan works to counterfeit evil as good! As you carefully and prayerfully read the following passage, consider that Jesus said that sin begins with our thoughts. How can you read a graphic erotic scene without this guilt of sin?

The same way I can read the Song of Solomon without lusting. (And who said the scene was "graphic"? Most of the best erotic writing is not "graphic" at all!)

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body (mind, heart, strength). -- 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 (NIV)

Amen!

I will not commit sexual sin. I will also honor God with my mind. But neither of these things forbids creating or reading erotic writing.

[ February 12, 2003, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[David Cooke Jr]

Hedied4you,
RE: your brother's writing erotic stories, its all about context. Does it glorify sin? Does it tell us something about the human condition? Does it demonstrate the consequences of sin? Its all about the context and the ultimate message.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
Hedied4you,
RE: your brother's writing erotic stories, its all about context. Does it glorify sin? Does it tell us something about the human condition? Does it demonstrate the consequences of sin? Its all about the context and the ultimate message.

Excellent guidelines!

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
your analogy is full of holes -- writing is creating

Amazing! That is EXACTLY what a Playboy photographer said about his work on a TV talk show. They consider themselves "creative artists," transcending sexuality to a higher beauty. Sound familiar?

"The greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians . . . who honor Jesus with their lips, and go out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." -- dcTalk ("What If I Stumble")

 

[Don]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
I caught the reference when you mentioned it the first time...

Just because the Bible doesn't take the time to condemn both the way the Levite treated his concubine (why did he have a concubine in the first place!) nor the abuse, rape and murder of the concubine by the mob, does not mean it is not evil.

In any case, the issue of whether or not you think the abuse, rape and murder of a woman is evil, I still assert that it is fine to present such a scene as long as you depict it as evil and there are consequences. [/QB]

In this case, the consequences were the cutting up of the body into pieces to send to the 12 tribes in order to show them their need for repentence.

I think you also need to reference Deuteronomy 3 (v.6).

If I'm not allowed to write about what you consider evil things, drawing attention to them and causing people to think upon them and draw pictures in their minds about the images I depict, why should "erotic fiction" be any different?

Shouldn't everything we write, say, do be to the glory of God?

If I can't write these things to the glory of God--meaning that I don't cause a brother or sister to stumble by causing them to think and dwell upon things that are not pure, honest, etc.--then I shouldn't write them. If erotic fiction does the same--causes people to think and dwell upon things that are not pure, honest, etc.--then we shouldn't write them.

If you don't see the parallel, it's because I don't communicate myself very well. That's why I haven't written any books.

 

[John Wells]

Baptist Believer,

Based on your justification of both alcohol and erotic fiction, I can just picture a hurting, seeking non-believer sitting down next to you on a 3-hour plane flight. In what sequence would you share your joy of: a beer, an "erotic read," and salvation through Jesus Christ?

 

[Rev. Joshua]

John,

Why not share all three?

Joshua

 

[John Wells]

Yea Joshua, and if the cause of that person's hurting is pornography and alcohol abuse, your witness would really point them in the right direction!

You never disappoint my amazement and disgust at one who calls himself a shepherd of God's people.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by John Wells:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
your analogy is full of holes -- writing is creating

Amazing! That is EXACTLY what a Playboy photographer said about his work on a TV talk show. They consider themselves "creative artists," transcending sexuality to a higher beauty. Sound familiar?</font>[/QUOTE]No.

The objectification of women in a magazine devoted to the "playboy lifestyle" (a hedonistic lifestyle of casual and uncommitted sex) is a vastly different thing than erotic writing that is based on a Christian view of sexuality.

Your desperate attempt to paint your opponents as pornographers shows how weak your argument is.

"The greatest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians . . . who honor Jesus with their lips, and go out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." -- dcTalk ("What If I Stumble")

Hmm… I think this statement might apply to those who ignore what the Bible says when it conflicts with their opinions. Unthinking legalism and false judgment of others (especially, assuming the worst of others actions and motivations) is at least as destructive as those who are in wanton sin.

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Your desperate attempt to paint your opponents as pornographers shows how weak your argument is.

"Weak argument" is your desperation to justify clinging to "worldly sin!" You are the one who will have to give an account for how well you have "shone the light" to a lost and dying world. Since your mind is made up as to your innocence, I hope all goes well for you on that day!

 

[Helen]

It seems to me that the easiest way to decide what is right or wrong here is to simply say that Christians are those who follow Christ. It is not a matter of doing something because others do it, or because a Hollywood writer has some pretend Christian preacher do it, but rather the deciding point in any Christian's life is whether Christ is doing it through him or her or whether that person is just doing something they want to do and trying to use "Christian liberty" as an excuse.

This has NOTHING to do with legalism. It has everything to do with Christ acting in us and through us to touch and hurting and dying world. Is that sort of writing something He is doing through the person, or the person is doing simply out of his own desires for whatever?

As a last mention, the very word "erotic" has to do with sexual stimulation. This is something the Bible itself reserves for the marriage bed...

 

[kung_foo_christian]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Yea Joshua, and if the cause of that person's hurting is pornography and alcohol abuse, your witness would really point them in the right direction!

You never disappoint my amazement and disgust at one who calls himself a shepherd of God's people.

I think you need to read Romans 14. It deals with the issue of being sensitive to weaker believers that would stumble if associated with (in this example) alcohol orerotic christian literature.
Sensitivity to the condition of others is an important part of any conversation, christian or non.

It may not be appropriate to talk about it to some people. It may not be appropriate to offer a nice slab of pie to someone on a diet.
Does this make pie wrong? No, and your actions are only wrong if it causes a weaker willed person to stumble.

The same applies here.

you cant apply a cover all set of rules on what to talk about and what not to talk about for every situation.
That's why God gave us sensitivity and empathy.

-KFC

 

[HeDied4U]

Wow, quite the range of opinions posted here.

Frank (that's my brother) says "Thanks. I see I have a lot to consider if I decide to continue this line of writing. Maybe I should stick to sci-fi and mysteries."

Thanks y'all, this is what the BB is all about.

God Bless!!

Adam

On Eagle's Wings

 

[christine]

Basically comonsense should rule. Ask yourself a few things
1. Does my wife's picture appear in my head as I'm reading this, or some shapely blonde?
2. Is there a necessity for this in the story, something that can't be said in another way?
3. What would the unbeliever think if he read this? Remember, obstain from all appearances of evil?
4. Do I have to read the author's bio to be able to tell that he is a christian?