What do you do to keep the sabbath holy?

[Singer]

(BobRyan)

Catholics claiming that the 2nd century church was "their catholic church" is a bit like Baptists saying that John the baptist was a Southern Baptist "because the word is the name".

(Singer)
Bob...it's even worse than that. They've admitted to me that the word "catholic" was commonly used to depict the christian church (At this time there were no Catholics per denomination). And, it was used as it meant general or universal christians. Then (I was told) it was Ignatius who added a capital C to the name and turned it into a proper name. I've since said that I'm catholic but not Catholic !

It compares with the use of the word Kleenex. It is of course a brand name of facial tissue but is misused to mean ALL facial tissues. "Give me a Kleenex, please"

So in the early days everyone was a catholic christian (universal, average, general christian) and it looks like a nasty trick to steal that term, add a capital C and call one's denomination by that name.

Just call me a catholic

Shame !

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed.

Just as "the baptist" meant one thing in the first century and something more sectarian today - so it is with the term Catholic - a very sectarian term today - but not the case in its "generic" non-denominational context.

But we have a few Catholic friends here trying that old stunt to see if it will fly.

I guess not - eh?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Carson Weber]

Early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes: "As regards ‘Catholic’ . . . in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Canon). . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church" (Early Christian Doctrines, 190–1).

"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard" (Saint Augustine of Hippo, The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).

 

[BobRyan]

It does not "good" to propose that John the Baptist was a follower of the true Messiah and thus not in the error of the Jewish leaders as a "way" to define John as a true "southern Baptist".

It also does no good to observe that churches following the truth in the NT were in distinction to some fellowships that had fallen into error as a way to define a "Catholic sectarian denomination" in the 2nd century.

In fact the struggle to get all the bishops to come under one defining leader - was still in full swing as late as the 3rd century.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

Bob...it's even worse than that. They've admitted to me that the word "catholic" was commonly used to depict the christian church (At this time there were no Catholics per denomination). And, it was used as it meant general or universal christians. Then (I was told) it was Ignatius who added a capital C to the name and turned it into a proper name

Ignatius was probably the one to first mention it in is generic sense (as well as "Christianity"). The Apostles Creed followed, also using it as "universal". It became a "proper [denominational] name later on, as someone else pointed out.

 

[Downsville]

Hiya Abiyah,
I keep in mind the scripture beow and try to follow it

ISAIAH 58 [12] And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.[13] If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:[14] Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

And i also keep in mind what Jesus said about the sabbath. He seemed to want to distance Himself from the hundreds of laws the Jews added to the sabbath command. They picked corn and ate on the sabbath, He said it was good to do good on the sabbath. He talked about saving cattle on the sabbath if it fell in a hole. He was Lord of the
sabbath. And that it was for man that He made the sabbath.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
I don't keep the Sabbath.

Then why are you posting to this thread?

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Singer:
Salvation was granted thousands of times before Catholicism. Jesus released souls from hell without input from the Vatican.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Abiyah:
The question was asked by SaggyWoman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What do you do to keep the Sabbath holy?

-- A worthy questions for non-Baptists as well. So how do you do to keep the Sabbath holy? </font>[/QUOTE]Great question, strange that it's been misunderstood.

Here you go:

Up until a few months ago we were attending church with others on the Sabbath, but we are now worshipping at home.

I still go shopping on the Sabbath because it is literally the only day I don't work.

When my husband is working he has the car, and when I am working, I have the car (we only have one car) so the only time I can go shopping is on the day neither of us work!

I mentioned that because there are a lot of Sabbatarians who don't shop on the Sabbath.

We'd starve if I didn't!

We have a short family worship time of singing songs of praise, while I play guitar, and sometimes piano (depending on the song).

My husband or I give a brief devotional message from Scripture for the kids, and then we let them go in their room and watch a Bible video while we have a more 'adult' Bible study together.

We usually then take the kids to the beach or the nature preserve for a hike, or to the Mountains. For a time of enjoying God's creation.

Then at about 3 or so we go to Costco, and then I have to get ready for work! I go as soon as the sun sets.

I work saturday night, sunday all day, then M-Th nights.

For those who don't know, I deliver pizza.

God blessed us with this job, and I do quite well. We now have all our bills paid each month and we are making double payments on our credit card!

And they have never had a problem allowing me to take Sabbath off. They 'required' that all employees work on Halloween night, which landed on a friday this year. They allowed me to open that day and clock out as soon as the sun set.

Everyone else had to work all night. They didn't give it a second thought.

Praise God!!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Singer]

Thanks for the update and the input, Kelly.
I like to hear success stories and yours is turning into one due to the determination and application of principles by yourself and your husband.

God Bless

 

[A_Christian]

Actually, I don't consider any day of the week more holy then any other day of the week. I don't consider holidays more holy either... I just enjoy them as they come and go.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
Actually, I don't consider any day of the week more holy then any other day of the week. I don't consider holidays more holy either... I just enjoy them as they come and go.

Interesting.

Here is what God Himself said about that

Isaiah 66 makes it clear regarding the “New Heavens and New Earth” also identified in Rev 20 -- “From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL Mankind come before Me to Worship”

How can Christ the Creator call for ALL mankind to honor Sabbath as a day of Worship like that in the New Earth? Surely the Sabbath will NOT be for all mankind since in fact it WAS only for the Jews – correct?

Christ the Creator addresses the point head-on

“The Sabbath WAS MADE for Mankind” Mark 2:27

From the very “making” of Christ the Creator’s Holy Day – it was “made for Mankind”

Ok – so “when did Christ the Creator MAKE it?”

Notice - Christ the Creator gave mankind the 7-day week in Gen 2:3. For it was ” Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made”. A 7-day week - not a 6-day week for mankind. Christ the Creator makes his holy 7th day memorial of His creative action in making mankind – “for mankind” when he MAKES it “holy” – sanctified in Gen 2:3 before the fall of mankind.

When God speaks directly to His people in Exodus 20 and summarizes that same Gen 1-2:3 event notice what Christ the Creator says of His own Holy day – Made Holy at HIS making of this planet and life on this planet – and mankind.

Exodus 20:8-11 summary of the Creation week "event" shows it to have been made holy, sanctified and blessed by virtue of God’s own act of resting – that “alone” is given as the basis for the command. The commandment is in the format “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy…For in Six days God…. Therefore He Blessed, sanctified and made holy the Seventh day”.

Here it is in full as – God framed it at Sinai speaking directly to the People of God, He said

Exodus 20:
8 ""Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Carson Weber]

Robert, you forgot to add what else God Himself has said about the Sabbath in His Word.

Col 2:16-17, "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

The reason we know that Paul is speaking of the weekly Sabbath is because Paul is reproducing a familiar pattern that we already see in Scripture, which, in one fell swoop, designates (1) yearly, (2) monthly, and (3) weekly observances.

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, sabbath

1 Chronicles 23:31 - fixed festivals, new moons, Sabbaths

2 Chronicles 2:4 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbaths

2 Chronicles 8:13 - annual feasts, new moons, Sabbaths

2 Chronicles 31:3 - fixed festivals, new moons, Sabbaths

Nehemiah 10:33 - appointed times, new moon, Sabbaths

Isa 1:13-14 - Appointed feasts, New moon, Sabbath

Ezekiel 45:17 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbaths

Ezek 46:1-11 - appointed feasts, new moons, Sabbath

Hosea 2:11 - festal assemblies, new moons, Sabbaths

With this in mind, Paul, incontrovertibly, is telling us in Col 2:16 that we are no longer held to keeping the Sabbath day.

The ritual stipulations of the Sinai Covenant were pedagogical; those who have come to enjoy divine sonship in the New Covenant are no longer bound by this custodian.

"[T]he law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul" the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 22 (Gal 3:17). "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions" (Gal 3:19). "efore faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." (Gal 3:23-26).

"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain" (Gal 4:9-11).

 

[Singer]

That's the way I've always taken it, Carson.

What else could those scriptures mean.

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by Singer:
Thanks for explaining, Abiyah, I see your point.... and while we're on the topic, I might add my thoughts on the Sabbath. We have an SDA church in our town and I observe the members (both of them..) walking to church on Saturday. I really have to wonder if God is giving them brownie points for relaxing on this day. All SDAers here are vegetarians (I know them personally) but yet their prominent member was a very successful cattle rancher who provided beef for the American dinnertable. I'm sure when his wife was hospitalized in the ICU that he would not have expected the doctors and nurses to NOT show up for work on Saturday. I doubt if he failed to turn on lights in his house or flush the stool so as not to cause anyone to work on his Sabbath. If he got to church and found it on fire on Saturday would he call the fire dept. or would he cause them to sin by coming to his aid?

Same goes for Sunday keepers.

I cannot answer for the SDAs, knowing virtually nothing about them, but I will answer for myself.

What most Christians do not seem to understand is that the preservation of life, at all times, takes precedence over the other Commands. When the ox fell into the ditch, one who truly understood mitzvot would work on Sabbath to get the ox out of the ditch. If one's life-saving profession causes them to work on Sabbath, so be it. Most Sabbath-observers, however, will have a schedule which would only allow them to be called on an emergency on Sabbath.

While some understand the Scriptures in one way, another will understand them in another way. Some do not turn lights on in their homes, because they see it as lighting a fire; I use my lights. While I do not cook large meals, I will warm whatever is around to eat in the microwave. Some will not. And yes, I flush the toilet. Perhaps someone may not call the fire department (I don't know anyone who would not), but I would.

What we understand is this: Torah (instruction, the Law) is flawless. Created by our God, it is the very words of Y'shua-Jesus, who is the Word; therefore, it is flawless. Yet to follow the Law, it caused the priests to work -- and work hard! -- on Sabbaths! The Torah also caused the priests to become unclean while doing their work in the Temple (it was unlawful to enter the Temple in an unclean state)!

So how is Torah flawless? It is flawless because it was not created to show our God's perfectiion; it was created to show us our imperfection and our need for Messiah.

So if the Temple were here, we would walk in and see the priests working hard, sweating, handling the carcasses of dead animals, splattered with blood -- the blood even deliberately placed on their bodies on their ears, big toe, etc.!

What is this picture? It not only shows our need for a blood sacrifice, but it shows that:
(1) We cannot sacrifice for ourselves. We can do nothing for ourselves except to be present, just as we must present ourselves to the Messiah for cleansing.
(2) It shows the seriousness and horribleness of our sin, that a perfect animal must give up its life for us, just as Messiah did.
(3) The sacrifice of the young, perfect animal shows us up-close what our Lord would go through/went through, though innocent and undeserving.
(4) It shows the imperfection of humans, that priests must become unclean in order for us to become clean, just as our Messiah took our sins, becoming unclean by them, in order for us to become clean.

There is more, but I think I have made my point. It is flawless because Torah -- instruction, the Law -- is for us -- it is for our benefit, our perfection, the right path, and most of all, it points the way to Messiah. Messiah is ALWAYS the subject of Torah. He is its Purpose, its Mainstay, its only Support. Because it shows us our severe flaw, it points to the only one with the remedy.

 

[Abiyah]

Carson --

Suppose we are grocers, and I am your manager. I come to you and say, "Carson, since the union requires us to take two 15-minute breaks and a 30-minute lunch daily, don't let a union rep catch you not taking them. We have a meeting coming up, and your abiding by the rules at all times will have a direct bearing on what happens to our contract." What will you do? If you want to stay employed in my store, you will follow the rules; if not, good-bye!

Now consider:

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Col 2:16-17, "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or Suppose we are both union grocers: I am your with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath."

Who is he writing to? Believers. Is there any biblical evidence that they were not remaining kashrut, observing the new moons, and observing Sabbath? No (except in some modern people's minds). But there were some who were accusing them of not doing them, as they accused Paul himself. The writer was not saying, "Do what you want with regard to these things"; he was saying that they should observe Torah, not necessarily the added laws, so that they would not be judged as not doing them. If people read these verses in complete context, all would see that; however, most of us refuse to see what we do not wish to see.

"These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Look up this portion in Greek. The word only is added by the translator; it appears nowhere in the Greek, and it deliberately diminishes the importance of the Torah. Re the shadow Torah casts, in order for there to be a shadow, there must be substance and light, TOGETHER. Remove the Torah from the Light, and there is nothing. Why? Because the Light is also the Word! However, our God gave both Torah and Light.

With this in mind, Paul, incontrovertibly, is telling us in Col 2:16 that we are no longer held to keeping the Sabbath day.

Incontrobertibly? No, Carson. Not in our God's mind.

The ritual stipulations of the Sinai Covenant were pedagogical; those who have come to enjoy divine sonship in the New Covenant are no longer bound by this custodian.

"[T]he law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul" the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 22 (Gal 3:17). "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions" (Gal 3:19). "efore faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." (Gal 3:23-26).

"But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days, and months, and seasons, and years! I am afraid I have labored over you in vain" (Gal 4:9-11).

What many do not seem to understand is that Paul was writing to people who were being influenced to think that their salvation was dependant upon Torah and Torah-observance. Salvation was never dependant upon Torah! Salvation has ALWAYS been dependant upon faith in our God. Always was, always will be.

 

[Carson Weber]

Abiyah,

I apologize for not understanding your analogy; I read it several times and couldn't assimilate it. In this post, please let me see if I can further convey to you my viewpoint from St. Paul's perspective - as I read him - and the Catholic view from the Catechism.

One of St. Paul's major theses in the Pauline epistles is that the Torah was added due to the transgressions of Israel as a pedagogue (Gk. paidagogos; Galatians 4:23-29.).

"Why, then, the law? It was added for transgressions, until the descendant came to whom the promise had been made" (Gal 4:19).

Paul argues quite brilliantly in Galatians (so brilliantly that scholars are still dumbfounded by his seemingly ignorant statement in 3:36, which can only be understood by a thorough analysis of Gen 12-22) that the Gospel is the fulfillment of the Abrahamaic Covenant formed in Genesis 22, 430 years before the Torah was given to Israel as a disciplinarian due to Israel's subsequent transgressions.

In Galatians 3:15 and following, Paul argues from a covenantal standpoint that a covenant cannot be later amended. Now that God has provided and his seed has ratified the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 22 wherein all the nations are blessed (Gal 3:19), we are no longer bound by the ceremonial stipulations given to Israel throughout its desert wanderings (Gal 3:23-29).

Due to our baptism, "there is neither Jew nor Greek ... if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise [originally made to Abraham, 430 years before the giving of the Law at Sinai]" (Gal 3:28f).

Let me repeat that in other words. There are no longer some who should keep the ceremonial stipulations (Jewish Christians) and others who shouldn't (Gentile Christians). Due to Israel's being released from the paidagogos, Israel has been released from the Law which formed Israel as a Nation (to the exclusion of the Gentiles) so that the Church, which is "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) now makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

The Abrahamic covenant has finally been fulfilled, which brings God's family back into unity (this is why we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church).

Paul then, after giving a packed allegory on Christian freedom as opposed to the slavery of Sinai, tells us that "the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'" (Gal 5:14) and so we are to "bear one another's burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ" (Gal 6:2).

Now, I beg you to understand me. I am in no way saying that the Law is bad in any way.

Rather, "the Law is holy, spiritual, and good" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1963).

Forgive me for the lengh of what follows, but I want to include the Catechism's teaching on the Law, which is consonant with Jesus and Sacred Scripture:

1964 The Old Law is a preparation for the Gospel. "The Law is a pedagogy and a prophecy of things to come."[17] It prophesies and presages the work of liberation from sin which will be fulfilled in Christ: it provides the New Testament with images, "types," and symbols for expressing the life according to the Spirit. Finally, the Law is completed by the teaching of the sapiential books and the prophets which set its course toward the New Covenant and the Kingdom of heaven. There were . . . under the regimen of the Old Covenant, people who possessed the charity and grace of the Holy Spirit and longed above all for the spiritual and eternal promises by which they were associated with the New Law. Conversely, there exist carnal men under the New Covenant still distanced from the perfection of the New Law: the fear of punishment and certain temporal promises have been necessary, even under the New Covenant, to incite them to virtuous works. In any case, even though the Old Law prescribed charity, it did not give the Holy Spirit, through whom "God's charity has been poured into our hearts."[18]

The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord's Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure,[22] where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.[23]

1969 The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the "Father who sees in secret," in contrast with the desire to "be seen by men."[24] Its prayer is the Our Father.[25]

1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between "the two ways" and to put into practice the words of the Lord.[26] It is summed up in the Golden Rule, "Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets."[27]
The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the "new commandment" of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.[28]

1971 To the Lord's Sermon on the Mount it is fitting to add the moral catechesis of the apostolic teachings, such as Romans 12-15, 1 Corinthians 12-13, Colossians 3-4, Ephesians 4-5, etc. This doctrine hands on the Lord's teaching with the authority of the apostles, particularly in the presentation of the virtues that flow from faith in Christ and are animated by charity, the principal gift of the Holy Spirit. "Let charity be genuine.... Love one another with brotherly affection.... Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality."[29] This catechesis also teaches us to deal with cases of conscience in the light of our relationship to Christ and to the Church.[30]

1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who "does not know what his master is doing" to that of a friend of Christ - "For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you" - or even to the status of son and heir.[31]

1973 Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. The traditional distinction between God's commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. The precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. The aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it.[32]

1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. The perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbor. The counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practiced in keeping with the vocation of each:
[God] does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.[33]

17 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 4, 15, 1: PG 7/1, 1012.

18 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 107, 1 ad 2; cf. Rom 5:5.

19 Heb 8:8, 10; cf. Jer 31:31-34.

20 St. Augustine, De serm. Dom. 1, 1: PL 34,1229-1230.

21 Cf. Mt 5:17-19.

22 Cf. Mt 15:18-19.

23 Cf. Mt 5:44,48.

24 Cf. Mt 6:1-6; 16-18.

25 Cf. Mt 6:9-13; Lk 11:2-4.

26 Cf. Mt 7:13-14,21-27.

27 Mt 7:12; cf. Lk 6:31.

28 Cf. Jn 15:12; 13:34.

29 Rom 12:9-13.

30 Cf. Rom 14; 1 Cor 5-10.

31 Jn 15:15; cf. Jas 1:25; 2:12; Gal 4:1-7.21-31; Rom 8:15.

32 Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 184, 3.

33 St. Francis de Sales, Love of God 8, 6.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps a few more Catholic sources would be helpful ...

This is from the catechism of the Catholic church, the official guide for every Catholic in obeying the laws of God and the church, paragraph 2172 & 2173.

" 2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man ought to "rest" and should let others especially the poor, "be refreshed." the Sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is the day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.

" 2173 the Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of the day. He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: ' the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.' with compassion, Christ declares the Sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing. The Sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God. ' the son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.' "


Dies Domini pt 11 "the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love". Pt 15 "unlike many other precepts it (the Sabbath) is set not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue, the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human (not merely Jewish) heart".

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
[QB] Robert, you forgot to add what else God Himself has said about the Sabbath in His Word.

Col 2:16-17, "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

The reason we know that Paul is speaking of the weekly Sabbath is because Paul is reproducing a familiar pattern that we already see in Scripture, ..
With this in mind, Paul, incontrovertibly, is telling us in Col 2:16 that we are no longer held to keeping the Sabbath day.

You are in error in that post on so many points - it is difficult to tally them all in one response.

#1. You offer "guesswork" instead of dealing with the post that I gave that shows not only WAS the Sabbath made for "mankind" but it WILL CONTINUE to apply to "mankind" in the New Earth.

#2. The "shadows" of what is to come - regarding the Messiah - "was not" the purpose or function of the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 and even your own RC sources admit to this.

#3. By failing to address the points made - you simply opt for a "slice and dice" approach to scripture rather than a exegetically sound "both-and" model AND in this case you even deny the teacching of your own Pope to do it.

Carson said --
The ritual stipulations of the Sinai Covenant were pedagogical;

And according to your own Pope - the 10 commmandments do not fit the cultic model you speculate for them above.

Note ..

Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

In other words you guesswork is denied even by your own leaderhship -- at least "that one".

Carson states --
those who have come to enjoy divine sonship in the New Covenant are no longer bound by this custodian.

"[T]he law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul" the Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 22 (Gal 3:17). "Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions" (Gal 3:19). "efore faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." (Gal 3:23-26).

You have done well to snip out segments of Gal 3 and skp about in the chapter as you do above - since leaving in the sections you omitted would have obliterated that case you seek to make of it.

See the next post.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In the event that there is really any interest at all in what Galations 3 says about the law of God in an exegetically faithful manner ...

Gal 3
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

As we join WITH Abraham in that Faith - we are among the Saints - both OT and NT no Change. The same Solution - Faith in God.

8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "" ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.''

Gal 03
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

We are blessed WITH Abraham - "the BELIEVER" showing our UNION/Identification/Continuity with the SAINTS of the OT. Seen again in Heb 11.
Faith is attributed “Before the Cross” even in the case of Abraham. We see this again in Heb 11 regarding the giants of faith in the OT set as examples EVEN for NT saints. This sets the “context” for “faith” in Gal 03 as we shall see it used again later.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "" CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.''

No restriction in time - ALL (OT and NT) are under the curse of the law (ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God) Rom 3.

No sense of "Well you really don't have to worry about this curse since no law exists after Christ died".
Those under the Old Covenant of “obey and live” – live under a curse – today as they did in the OT. This is not the picture of Abraham but of Judas.

11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "" THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.''
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "" HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.''
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "" CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE''

No one is justified by the Law – OT or NT. No change.

Christ redeemed US from the curse – (HE Became a Curse for US!) – yes that is true.

That means that mankind (both OT and NT) is under a curse until we come to the point of belief – until we come to the faith of Abraham. No Change OT, NT.

The LAW STILL places ALL under a curse until they come to FAITH OT, NT no change.

14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, ""And to seeds,'' as referring to many, but rather to one, "" And to your seed,'' that is, Christ.
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

That promise given to Abraham (called the Gospel in vs 8 ) EXISTS in parallel with the Law of God at Sinai - for the OT saints. It precedes that Sinai event.

The promise “remains” OT and NT – no change.

The Law still condemns – OT and NT – no change.

18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Many people jump on this point (excluding almost the entire chapter to do so) and claim to see a start for the 10 commandments at Sinai and "an end" of the 10 commandment law as soon as Christ is born (not even content to wait for his death on the cross). And indeed - the verse does make it appear that either the law or the "agency of a mediator" is started at Sinai and ended with the coming of Christ as Messiah.

In Hebrews 7 we see that in fact it is the law regarding the agency of the mediator - the "earthly priesthood" that was "new"
at Sinai and ended with Christ as HE became our High Priest - no longer is it "man" according to the chapter.

But is that what we are to get from Gal 3 as well? Are we to conclude that Paul is saying that Murder and idolatry and taking
God's name in vain "used to be ok before Sinai" and are "now ok after the birth of Christ"?

Is he speaking about the Mosaic code of Deut 6:5 "Love for God" and Levitical code Lev 19:18 "Love for your neighbor" and
saying that transgressing these laws of Moses used to be ok before the cross and are once again ok to transgress after
the coming of Christ as a Baby?.

Paul teaches in the next chapter that when Christ came 'the see came" He was born "Under the law" fully obligated to obey
it perfectly (sinlessly) Gal 4:4-5 that He might redeem those who were "under the law". In Gal 3 Paul points out that the law
places "ALL men under sin" Gal 3:22-23 showing our "need" of salvation - our "need" of a Savior.

IF the law ended at the birth of Christ there was nothing left for him to "obey". If the law that "Defines Sin" ended at the cross
then those born after the cross - "need no savior" - for as Paul says "where there is no law there is no sin" Romans 4:15.

But Paul makes the case in Romans 7 regarding his own post cross experience - that it was the 10 commandment law that
still defined sin for him and placed him in need.

20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

The ONE Gospel was in effect in the OT as much as 430 years BEFORE Sinai.

The LAW of God was never a means of salvation - Rather the Gospel promise preceding Sinai by at least 430 years was in effect WHILE Sinai's law was ALSO in effect. No contradiction. "Is the LAW CONTRARY to the Gospel"? Paul's answer is that it NEVER was!

God did not give Adam the Sabbath so Adam could be saved. Nor would Abraham, Moses, David be "saved" by resting on Sabbath instead of accepting God's substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. NOR could they be "saved" by Loving God (Deut 6:5) and Loving their neighbor (Lev 19:18)

When God said coveting was sin in order to tell lost humanity that by simply turning away from their sin of coveting - LOST humanity
could be saved. Salvation - WAS and still IS based on a promise. And coveting is STILL wrong, and loving God is STILL right and
God's Creation Sabbath is STILL "made for mankind" Mark 2:27.

22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

All are still under sin - all still need Christ all still need to resolve the problem of scripture shutting them up under sin by
turning to Christ, by believing by being "justified by faith". We must all turn from rebellion to faith in Christ. And when we
do "scripture" is not abolished.

Again - my point. Sin is still a reality
- the law (even the law of gal 3 mentioned here as scripture - and as given at Sinai) still defines sin and places us under it.

The "all" that we find here (in the context of writing to the gentiles of a gentile church in Galatia) is really all - not just Jews.

The same all that is condemned here - will be justified and saved if they turn to faith and believe (vs 28)

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

The text did not say "but when Jesus came to earth we were no longer bound by
God's Law". it says "but after faith is come we are no longer under a
schoolmaster". it is the moment of faith in Christ
- not the moment of crucifixion that transfers a human out of the lost state (condemned under the active and authoritative scripture of God)

"You are all children of God by Faith".

In Christ,

Bob