What do you guys think of Author Pinks handling of "Duty Faith"?

[DaveXR650]

Duty faith wrests the work of regeneration from the Holy Spirit. To put it bluntly, within the covenant of grace it is the Holy Spirit’s duty to give faith to those for whom Christ died. It is not every man’s duty to appropriate this task to himself…

No. It doesn't. All it does is say man is truly guilty and responsible if he does not respond to the gospel. You can be as strong of a Calvinist as you want as far as believing that the Holy Spirit enlightens, or quickens or even that he regenerates or gives the new birth before you come to faith. With what you just said above @Silverhair has you in check mate because you are admitting that to be truly responsible before God you must have free will. That is precisely why a STRONG Calvinist like Pink had no trouble with it.

So you are advocating a pseudo Arminian theological position … a Calminian “hodgepodge” stew by throwing into t he pot man’s efforts to include Gods works?

There is some truth to that in my case. Most Calvinists nowadays who consider themselves knowledgeable on this will say to people when they share the gospel "Christ has died", and if you come to him you can be saved. They are careful to not say "Christ has died for you" because they do not know if the person who they are talking to is "elect". I, myself, have no problem saying directly to someone "Christ died for you". The "you" in many people's eyes disqualified me as a bonified Calvinist no matter how much I insist that no one gets saved without the work of the Holy Spirit on them individually.

Would you put John Gill under the Hyper Calvinist column?

I haven't read Gill enough to know. From what I have read I tend to like him but I am aware that a lot of theologians say he was a hyper-Calvinist. Just to be clear, while I don't agree with the hyper-Calvinist take on the degree of causal determinism of God I do consider them Christians with no reservations.

 

[JD731]

All he is saying is an attempt to take the idea of a limited atonement and explain it is such a way that does not seem to be the prime cause of knocking many people out of the gospel before they were even born. It allows a theology that respects God's sovereignty in salvation and accepts the need for the work of the Holy Spirit in the whole process of salvation - yet does not make it seem like the prime causal effect of being lost is that Christ didn't die for you - rather it is your own sin, or your refusal to believe.

The scriptures have a doctrine of the Holy Ghost/Spirit but it is not what is assumed on these boards that are loaded up with the Reformed. No where is it the responsibility of the Holy Spirit to bring men to Jesus Christ. That is the job of the word of the Lord, the gospel of salvation. It is time for people to prove their doctrines with the scriptures rather than just assume them and then claim they are being attacked when they are called out on the false things they say.

There are fundamentals of the faith whether any individual likes it or whether the people who own this website likes it or whether the administrators likes it. There are things that must be believed to be saved and when a group claims that men cannot believe the gospel and then uses nonsense double talk like the blood of Christ is sufficient for the salvation of the whole world but is only efficient for the elect and the non elect cannot ever be elect because they cannot believe, one just has to shake his head in wonder at such nonsense.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
How Heavenly Father? Will you tell us?
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Here is a chapter in the Holy Scriptures, Romans 10, that is about nothing else but how a sinner is saved from his sins, and why he is not if he is not, and the HolyGhost/Spirit is not even mentioned in the text one time. Salvation is receiving the Holy Spirit by faith

A sinner must hear the gospel first before he can be saved
Men cannot be saved without the human element
The sinner must be saved by processing the gospel message and by believing it.
The giving of the Holy Spirit, when the hearer believes the gospel in his heart. is salvation, the new birth, the beginning of the new life.

This is easily shown in the scriptures to be true;

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Spirit is the agency of the new birth. He is the beginning of life when he indwells the repentant believer. The Holy Spirit is not the agency of faith. As usual, the Reformed has this exactly backward. They miss this by 180 degrees.

The context of this whole epistle has the Spirit being the promise. Therefore, in any place that the promise is mentioned, one can substitute the Spirit and not do harm to the text.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Who could read this and get it wrong?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What text is the man preaching from and how does he claim it becomes efficient for those to whom it is sufficient?

I believe (I may be wrong) that 'duty faith' was a term of abuse attacted to Andrew Fuller's teaching by his opponents.

Mark 1:15 is a good example of 'duty faith.' To whom was our Lord speaking? To everyone within earshot. Is He Lord of lords and King of kings? Yes He is. Therefore it is everyone's duty to obey His gracious command to repent and believe.

 

[Brightfame52]

Paul wrote, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9). Men are not saved accidentally or by chance, but according to God's eternal purpose, which God purposed before the world began.

Okay great scripture but you didnt answer the question,

When does this Justification in the sight of God by the imputed righteousness of Christ take place from your understanding ?

 

[DaveXR650]

Who could read this and get it wrong?

Almost everybody! With your post above the Calvinists are out back gathering up a pile of wood and many of the fundamental Baptists are helping them. Every group and every individual has a different perspective on a lot of these things so most of them have to be wrong on something.

If you have the belief that you, on your own, come to faith but then as soon as you do, the Holy Spirit comes and makes sure no matter what you do you can never be lost then you are more of a practicing hyper-Calvinist than anyone. And yet that is exactly the predominate belief of modern evangelicals and Baptists. If you pray for people to get saved that have access to a Bible or come to a real church then you must be praying that the Holy Spirit bring influence on them. What else are you asking?

Most Christians, Calvinist or not, believe that at some level the Holy Spirit has to draw or in some way help a person or they cannot get saved. But you certainly have enough information when you hear the gospel to truly be held responsible.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Okay great scripture but you didnt answer the question,

When does this Justification in the sight of God by the imputed righteousness of Christ take place from your understanding ?

From before the foundation of the universe was formed. How about you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Love this guy…

 

[JD731]

Almost everybody! With your post above the Calvinists are out back gathering up a pile of wood and many of the fundamental Baptists are helping them. 1) Every group and every individual has a different perspective on a lot of these things so most of them have to be wrong on something.

2) If you have the belief that you, on your own, come to faith but then as soon as you do, the Holy Spirit comes and makes sure no matter what you do you can never be lost then you are more of a practicing hyper-Calvinist than anyone. And yet that is exactly the predominate belief of modern evangelicals and Baptists. 3) If you pray for people to get saved that have access to a Bible or come to a real church then you must be praying that the Holy Spirit bring influence on them. What else are you asking?

Most Christians, Calvinist or not, believe that at some level 4) the Holy Spirit has to draw or in some way help a person or they cannot get saved. But you certainly have enough information when you hear the gospel to truly be held responsible.

I do not agree with most of what you said in this post. On point one above, I understand different perspectives but I also understand plain and simple language that one would have to work at to get wrong.

Point 2. It is not true that because I believe what I am reading that I am a hyper Calvinist. That does not make sense. I read Ga 3 and it says the Spirit of God is the promise made to Abraham fulfilled in the gentiles when they believe. How is it fulfilled? They are given the promise of the Spirit, who is the agent of the new birth, Ga 3 does say we become the sons of God by faith. It does not say we become the sons of God so we can believe.

Point 3) God works through his providence. He answers prayer through circumstance and happenstance and any other way he wants. He is God. However, you are assuming the Holy Spirit draws one more because someone prays or that he is working from inside him. I believe whatever the scriptures say about it. So, if you can show that to me I will believe it but I am not going to believe your philosophy.

Point 4) No one was ever saved, in the sense that their sins were washed away and the Spirit of God birthed them into the family of God when they believe on him,, until Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. "without the shedding of blood there is no remission," we are told. "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to everyone that believeth." Rom 1:16, and the gospel is defined in 1 Cor 15: 1-4 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The blood of Jesus Christ washes our sins away, Re 1:5,

Additionally, concerning the drawing of God, here is a fact concerning this age. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles writes 13 letters explaining God's gracious salvation to whosoever will believe his gospel and get this, he never one time even uses the word "draw" in any context in what he wrote. God is not drawing sinners to himself, he is sending his preachers out to them. Consider the marvelous story of Cornelius. Angels were in his house, Prayer was made by him. A preacher was sent for in the instructions of the angel. Missionaries and witnesses came but the Holy Spirit is with the preacher, Peter, in Acts 10:19 and was not associated with Cornelius until they received him by believing Peter's preaching of the gospel.

The logic of the scriptures makes total sense if one believes the words and honors context.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Almost everybody! With your post above the Calvinists are out back gathering up a pile of wood and many of the fundamental Baptists are helping them. Every group and every individual has a different perspective on a lot of these things so most of them have to be wrong on something.

If you have the belief that you, on your own, come to faith but then as soon as you do, the Holy Spirit comes and makes sure no matter what you do you can never be lost then you are more of a practicing hyper-Calvinist than anyone. And yet that is exactly the predominate belief of modern evangelicals and Baptists. If you pray for people to get saved that have access to a Bible or come to a real church then you must be praying that the Holy Spirit bring influence on them. What else are you asking?

Most Christians, Calvinist or not, believe that at some level the Holy Spirit has to draw or in some way help a person or they cannot get saved. But you certainly have enough information when you hear the gospel to truly be held responsible.

Responsible for what? It appears that in your eyes, the gospel becomes an obligation you must fulfill while mine is a joyful revelation of something which is already true about our existence. To us the gospel is not an obligation but a promise Thus the efforts of the church are released to be a celebration of the gospel rather than a busy and desperate attempt at saving as many souls as possible before Christ returns.

 

[DaveXR650]

Point 2. It is not true that because I believe what I am reading that I am a hyper Calvinist.

Absolutely. I only meant that among Baptists (that I come from) there is a belief that it's totally up to your free will as far as becoming saved - but once you have invited Jesus into your heart, and then have been born again because of your initiative, at that point there is nothing anyone even you could do to mess that up. It is all set and predetermined that you are saved forever because of what you did. So what happened to your free will, I would ask? That's what I meant. And I didn't mean to suggest that that was your belief.

Point 4) No one was ever saved, in the sense that their sins were washed away and the Spirit of God birthed them into the family of God when they believe on him,, until Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. "without the shedding of blood there is no remission," we are told. "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation, to everyone that believeth." Rom 1:16, and the gospel is defined in 1 Cor 15: 1-4 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The blood of Jesus Christ washes our sins away, Re 1:5,

That is true. The role of the Holy Spirit and how he works with our will, the order of regeneration, belief, and so on, while interesting to look into, and essential if you want to teach, are of limited importance to the average believer, and at any rate, not essential to know about to be a Christian.

 

[Brightfame52]

From before the foundation of the universe was formed. How about you?

Agreed, now was that hard?

 

[DaveXR650]

Responsible for what? It appears that in your eyes, the gospel becomes an obligation you must fulfill while mine is a joyful revelation of something which is already true about our existence. To us the gospel is not an obligation but a promise Thus the efforts of the church are released to be a celebration of the gospel rather than a busy and desperate attempt at saving as many souls as possible before Christ returns.

Yes, I saw above you believe you were justified before the foundation of the universe. That and along with your belief that the gospel is a "joyful revelation of something which is already true about our existence" is what defines a hyper-Calvinist. There is also a danger when you go all in with "the efforts of the church are released to be a celebration of the gospel rather than a busy and desperate attempt at saving as many souls as possible before Christ returns", that you will truly become the "frozen chosen" as the Baptists say, albeit a "joyful" frozen chosen.

There is room for balance and a call to belief and repentance, along with appropriate threats for not doing so are legitimate functions of a true ministry. If you go so far as someone did on another thread, of claiming that repentance and belief are just works, and thus downplay them you have the gospel wrong, which is very serious.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Agreed, now was that hard?

You didn’t answer my question in return.

 

[percho]

From before the foundation of the universe was formed. How about you?

My thoughts on his ? and your answer.

It was belief (faith) of God (John 1:1) before the foundation of the world, predicated upon the Word made flesh, born of woman, learning the obedience, ie becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross through sufferings, See Luke 22:42 Heb 5:7,8 Gal 3:23-25

That is when, Obedience of Faith, took place and man was justified.

And the Word made flesh was therefore raised because of our justification = because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in (yet) (to) the spirit, 1 Peter 3:18 YLT Now See 1 Tim 3:16 NKJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God[fn] was manifested in the flesh, ( fn NU-Text reads Who )
Justified in the (to) Spirit, Justified in to Spirit
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

Then, for purpose, God has given the first-fruit of the Spirit to, the called.

IMHO

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, I saw above you believe you were justified before the foundation of the universe. That and along with your belief that the gospel is a "joyful revelation of something which is already true about our existence" is what defines a hyper-Calvinist. There is also a danger when you go all in with "the efforts of the church are released to be a celebration of the gospel rather than a busy and desperate attempt at saving as many souls as possible before Christ returns", that you will truly become the "frozen chosen" as the Baptists say, albeit a "joyful" frozen chosen.

There is room for balance and a call to belief and repentance, along with appropriate threats for not doing so are legitimate functions of a true ministry. If you go so far as someone did on another thread, of claiming that repentance and belief are just works, and thus downplay them you have the gospel wrong, which is very serious.

Are you trying to warn me of something David?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

From before the foundation of the universe was formed. How about you?

Nope. Elect from before the foundation of the world, but justified when you repeent and believe. Justification from eternity is demonstrably false.
Isaiah 12:1-2. 'And on that day you will say, "O LORD I will praise you;
though You were angry with Me, Your anger is turned away and You comfort me.
Behold, God is my sallvation; I will trust and not be afraid. For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and my song;
He has also become my salvation."'
'That day' is the day of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 11:10). God's anger is turned away when we trust in Jesus Christ and not before. God becomes our salvation; He has not always been our salvation.

Does this matter? I believe it does. Hyper-Calvinism renders preaching unnecessary. If folk are already justified they don't need it; if they aren't justified it won't do them any good. Yet we are instructed to 'preach the gospel to eery creature,' and we are told that 'it pleased God, through the foolishness of the word preached, to save those who beelieve.' God's elect will be saved, but they won't be saved without hearing the gospel and believing it. We must not tell people to look inside themselves to see if they're justified; we must bid them look to Jesus. The guy in post #87 didn't appear to have anything to say to unbelievers. It was just "Us four; no more; shut the door."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nope. Elect from before the foundation of the world, but justified when you repeent and believe. Justification from eternity is demonstrably false.
Isaiah 12:1-2. 'And on that day you will say, "O LORD I will praise you;
though You were angry with Me, Your anger is turned away and You comfort me.
Behold, God is my sallvation; I will trust and not be afraid. For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and my song;
He has also become my salvation."'
'That day' is the day of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 11:10). God's anger is turned away when we trust in Jesus Christ and not before. God becomes our salvation; He has not always been our salvation.

Does this matter? I believe it does. Hyper-Calvinism renders preaching unnecessary. If folk are already justified they don't need it; if they aren't justified it won't do them any good. Yet we are instructed to 'preach the gospel to eery creature,' and we are told that 'it pleased God, through the foolishness of the word preached, to save those who beelieve.' God's elect will be saved, but they won't be saved without hearing the gospel and believing it. We must not tell people to look inside themselves to see if they're justified; we must bid them look to Jesus. The guy in post #87 didn't appear to have anything to say to unbelievers. It was just "Us four; no more; shut the door."

So then, you are questioning my salvation?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So then, you are questioning my salvation?

Nope.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nope.

Oh you had me worried for a minute there​

 

[Brightfame52]

You didn’t answer my question in return.

What was it ?