What do you see?

[Mathetes66]

Paul... (continuing Eph 1)

An apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God

He was 'an' apostle not 'the' apostle. Apostle means 'sent out' one called by another for a specific task. He was one of the apostles that Jesus Christ called into His service & was sent out by the Holy Spirit.

Here is the initial greetings Paul did for his epistles as a comparison:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle & set apart for the gospel of God...

I Cor 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God & our brother Sosthenes, to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus & called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord & ours...

2 Cor 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God & Timothy our brother, to the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—and all the brothers who are with me, to the churches of Galatia:

Phil 1:1 Paul & Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers & deacons:
Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the saints & faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae:
I Thess 1:1 Paul, Silas & Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father & the Lord Jesus Christ
2 Thess 1:1 Paul, Silvanus & Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father & the Lord Jesus Christ
I Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior & of Christ Jesus our hope, to Timothy, my true child in the faith:
2 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus, to Timothy my beloved child...

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God & an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect & their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began. In His own time He has made His word evident in the proclamation entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior. To Titus, my true child in our common faith:

Philemon 1:1 Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, to Philemon our beloved fellow worker, to Apphia our sister, to Archippus our fellow soldier & to the church that meets at your house:

Paul knew he was sent by first hand experience in an encounter with Jesus Christ!

Acts 9:5,6 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.”

Acts 9:15-19 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.

Acts 13:1-4 Now there were in the church at Antioch prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger,a Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen a lifelong friend of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.
So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 20:18-24 “You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia, 19serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews; 20how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. 22And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, 23except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me. 24But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Acts 21:40; 22:1-And when there was a great hush, he addressed them in the Hebrew language, saying:
“I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamalielb according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. 4I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.

6“As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. 7And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ 8And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ 9Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understandc the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 10And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ 11And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.

12“And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

17“When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

 

[Mathetes66]

Acts 26:12-23
“In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language,a ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ 15And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you 18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. 21For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass: 23that the Christ must suffer and that, by being the first to rise from the dead, he would proclaim light both to our people and to the Gentiles.”

I have run out of time. More later.

 

[JonC]

All,
In another thread I asked a member who disagrees with what are commonly called "the doctrines of grace" ( or what is very often referred to as "Calvinism", TULIP, etc. ), but what I see as the truth in summary form, what they see when they read the Scriptures like I do...

As a newspaper or book, line by line and chapter by chapter;
Paying careful attention to context and the words written on the page.

What I'm not doing is asking anyone for a summary that's been provided to them by a church, denomination, Bible college, seminary or system of theology.
What I am asking for is for someone to please pick a passage of the Bible that deals with election, predestination, calling, etc and simply let me know, in a detailed fashion, what they see when they read it for themselves...with no help from men or institutions of men.
Think, "commentary", like Matthew Henry, John Gill, Adam Clarke, etc., but without their help.

I'll start with Ephesians 1 and go through to verse 12:

"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Keeping in mind that this is in the AV ( my preferred and only translation of God's word in the English ) and may pose a problem for some who are not used to reading it, I'd like to compare notes with anyone who is willing to perhaps go through a few passages just to see where we differ in our understandings.

1-2 Paul starts with his role as an apostle and addresses the letter to the Christians ar Ephesus, and continues with his introduction and blessing.
3. We are blessed in Christ:
4-5 In Christ (vs 3) we are chosen before the foundation of the World, that we should be holy. In Christ (vs 3) we are predestined unto the adoption of children by Christ.

 

[37818]

I've been explaining it since I've been here!

Where have you been?

Good to hear.
Well, it was among uour posts not addressed to me.

 

[Dave G]

As long as they keep the faith, Dave.

The faith is what got you saved and faith is what keeps you saved.

No Charlie, it isn't.
The Bible does not, and never has, stated that a person's faith is what causes the Lord to grant them eternal life.
Rather, it very pointedly states that only those that have believed ( or will believe ) on Him, have it.

This Calvinist election is a load of garbage.

I'm not a "Calvinist".
But I do agree with the "TULIP".

As far as the Scriptures speaking of election, it's all in there.
That is where I read and understood it from.

I don't know how many verses of Scripture I have posted that prove that!

The thing about "verses" is, that they are snippets of conversation.
The "Calvinistic" side can, and does, post Scriptures that agree with their viewpoints as well, sir.

 

[Dave G]

Where in the first parable is 'the sower' defined as the devil?

It doesn't.
In the first parable, the sower is the preacher of God's word, would you agree?

The sower of the tares in the second parable is definitely the devil.

I agree.

Where in the first parable are all the others defined as children of the evil one? They're not.

That's where bringing in what we've been told in other places, comes in, ky.
For example:

" I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. " ( John 15:1-8 ).

According to the above, who bears fruit and who does not?
I see it saying that those that are His disciples ( that's believers ) do, whereas those that are not, don't.

If a person is not one of the elect who bears fruit, then what are they?

 

[Charlie24]

No Charlie, it isn't.
The Bible does not, and never has, stated that a person's faith is what causes the Lord to grant them eternal life.
Rather, it very pointedly states that only those that have believed ( or will believe ) on Him, have it.

I'm not a "Calvinist".
But I do agree with the "TULIP".

As far as the Scriptures speaking of election, it's all in there.
That is where I read and understood it from.

The thing about "verses" is, that they are snippets of conversation.
The "Calvinistic" side can, and does, post Scriptures that agree with their viewpoints as well, sir.

We disagree, Dave. How much plainer can it be?

"Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness."

This is justification by faith, God granting the righteousness for eternal life based solely on faith/believing.

It seems you are giving different definitions for faith and believing, they are one in the same.

And Dave, your understanding of the Scripture concerning election are very much misunderstood.

I can go over that again if you like.

 

[Dave G]

We disagree, Dave. How much plainer can it be?

"Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness."

Abraham believed God with the faith that was Authored by Jesus Christ Himself ( Hebrews 12:2 ), is the substance of things hope for, and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ), the faith that is "of" Christ ( Galatians 2:20 ) and that is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 )?

I agree.

 

[Dave G]

I can go over that again if you like.

That's not necessary, Charlie; I understand it just fine.
God is my Teacher.

He showed me what election was some 22 years ago now.

 

[Charlie24]

Abraham believed God with the faith that was Authored by Jesus Christ Himself ( Hebrews 12:2 ), the faith that is "of" Christ ( Galatians 2:20 ) and that is the gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 )?
I agree.

I agree, the gift is eternal life through faith, with the faith also being the gift based on a positive response to the Holy Spirit's calling.

 

[Charlie24]

That's not necessary, Charlie; I understand it just fine.
God is my Teacher.

He showed me what election was some 22 years ago now.

Ok, must have been a different God that showed me the meaning of election.

 

[Dave G]

Ok, must have been a different God that showed me the meaning of election.

Tell me, out of curiosity, what do you see here, Charlie?

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

 

[Dave G]

I agree, the gift is eternal life through faith, with the faith also being the gift based on a positive response to the Holy Spirit's calling.

I'm sorry, Charlie, I don't see that at all.
To me, gifts are not given based on what a person does, but on what the giver wants to give.

That's what I see when I read the Scriptures as well.


Good evening to you.

 

[Charlie24]

Tell me, out of curiosity, what do you see here, Charlie?

" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Foreknow (Gods foreknowledge) is a key word in understanding the meaning of predestination.

God knew who would be saved before the foundation of the world. He predestined them "to be conformed to the image of His Son." vs 29

They are conformed to the image of His Son through a process predetermined by God, His redemption plan.

In this plan of redemption, prepared before the foundation of the world, is a calling by the Spirit. vs. 30

The ones who God foreknew, He knew would accept that call, are justified.

Predestination is not about God choosing who will be saved, it's about God knowing who will be saved and having predestined for them His plan of redemption to be conformed into the image of Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Foreknow (Gods foreknowledge) is a key word in understanding the meaning of predestination.

God knew who would be saved before the foundation of the world. He predestined them "to be conformed to the image of His Son." vs 29

They are conformed to the image of His Son through a process predetermined by God, His redemption plan.

In this plan of redemption, prepared before the foundation of the world, is a calling by the Spirit. vs. 30

The ones who God foreknew, He knew would accept that call, are justified.

Predestination is not about God choosing who will be saved, it's about God knowing who will be saved and having predestined for them His plan of redemption to be conformed into the image of Christ.

Look at this, Dave. This is the call to be conformed into the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit. I can show you verse after verse in the same manner.

Heb. 3:15

"While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."

Do you see the choice that is given to accept this calling from the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dave G]

Here's what I see:

Those that love God are "the called" ( summoned into a relationship with Him ) according to His purpose...not ours.
Only the ones that were foreknown were predestinated ( their destiny was fixed by God ) to being conformed to the image of His Son.
Those that were predestinated to that, were also "called" ( again, summoned ) by His Spirit and through the word of God ( from other passages ).
Those that were "called", were justified by the death of His Son, and those that were justified, He also has glorified.

So, based on the strict language of the passage:

Only the foreknown had any chance ( there is no "chance" in any of it ) of the rest being true for them.
No one else did.

 

[Dave G]

Do you see the choice that is given to accept this calling from the Holy Spirit?

No Charlie.
But it is similar to what I was taught growing up in IB churches.

 

[Charlie24]

Here's what I see:

Those that love God are "the called" ( summoned into a relationship with Him ) according to His purpose...not ours.
Only the ones that were foreknown were predestinated ( their destiny was fixed by God ) to being conformed to the image of His Son.
Those that were predestinated to that, were also "called" ( again, summoned ) by His Spirit and through the word of God ( from other passages ).
Those that were "called", were justified by the death of His Son, and those that were justified, He also has glorified.

So, based on the strict language of the passage:

Only the foreknown had any chance ( there is no "chance" in any of it ) of the rest being true for them.
No one else did.

It's impossible (total depravity) to love God without the Holy Spirit calling and showing you what God has done for you!

That's the ice breaker! Then the Spirit is saying in that call,

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

This is the call that must be decided by the hearer.

 

[Charlie24]

No Charlie.
But it is similar to what I was taught growing up in IB churches.

If you can't see it, then you just can't see it. But it's there, Dave, it is most certainly there!

 

[Dave G]

It's impossible (total depravity) to love God without the Holy Spirit calling and showing you what God has done for you!

I agree.

Then the Spirit is saying in that call,

Isaiah 1:18-20

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

The first thing I see in the passage above, is that God, through His prophet Isaiah, is addressing Israel...not all men.
The second thing that is fixed in my mind from other passages, is that Israel agreed at Mt. Sinai to a covenant of law that included blessings for obedience, and cursings for disobedience.

This is the call that must be decided by the hearer.

I see nothing in what you referenced that was or is intended for anyone outside of Israel:

" The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah." ( Isaiah 1:1 )

There is the context for the passage, is it not?
Isaiah is speaking to rebellious Israel.