What do you think about Pat Robertson?

[gb93433]

It is, afterall, all about attracting a big crowd and getting them saved at any cost. Nevermind sound doctrine and what the Bible says. Entertain them, make them feel good about themselves and they will be good to go for another week. And if they oppose your seeker theology, just wait long enough and maybe they will die or leave.

I cannot control what Warren does or what you do, but I am responsible to God for what I do. Personally I think almost every church is America is sick because it is not obedient in making disciples like Jesus commanded his disciples. They just hand out Bible study papers or “have a study.”

Let's get down to where the rubber meets the road. Is every deacon and church leader in your church currently making disciples? If not, then you are letting the disobedient lead you and the church you attend.

Jesus attracted big crowds but it was not a get them saved at any cost. What gives you the idea that large crowds equates to heretical teaching? Would you call Billy Graham in his earlier years a heretic?

I have personally heard Warren speak several times and I have not ever heard what you describe.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I cannot control what Warren does or what you do, but I am responsible to God for what I do. Personally I think almost every church is America is sick because it is not obedient in making disciples like Jesus commanded his disciples. They just hand out Bible study papers or “have a study.”

Let's get down to where the rubber meets the road. Is every deacon and church leader in your church currently making disciples? If not, then you are letting the disobedient lead you and the church you attend.

Jesus attracted big crowds but it was not a get them saved at any cost. What gives you the idea that large crowds equates to heretical teaching? Would you call Billy Graham in his earlier years a heretic?

I have personally heard Warren speak several times and I have not ever heard what you describe.

His latest article on Pastors.com was discussed a few weeks ago where he discusses how the resistors of change will need to either die or leave before the Church will "grow" the way you want it to. Check it out.

I did not know Billy Graham in his early years, but today, I have to say that I think some of his doctrine is a bit off...but then again, the same could be said of me I am sure. I am not against large Churches as long as it is not built on the compromise of being seeker sensitive and entertainment based. God has not called us to entertain the lost. He has called us to preach the Word and give glory to God. And yes, the leaders of my church are discipling others. The pastor has been here about a month, but I am confident that he will disciple others as well given enough time. He is a strong, Biblically sound pastor who preaches expositionally and has a heart of worship and for evangelism.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[gb93433]

His latest article on Pastors.com was discussed a few weeks ago where he discusses how the resistors of change will need to either die or leave before the Church will "grow" the way you want it to.

Isn’t that what Jesus taught about being lukewarm?

Too often churches want to take the easy road of little work with big numbers. Too often it calls a Bible study, "discipleship" when it is nothing more than a time of "Share Your Ignorance" and little or no accountability. If there were accountability in churches we would see men and women teaching and training others to make disciples by helping them to grow in the faith both in knowledge and in application. They have forgotten the rigors of discipleship as Jesus taught his disciples. Jesus did not lecture his disciples but took them everywhere he went and then sent them out. How many churches today are intentionally making disciples as Jesus did? If they are not then they must change.

No doubt the majority of churches must change to reach people. If they were reaching people and discipling them we would see that evidence. We would not be crying for helpers in the church and having all kinds of problems with lukewarm troublemakers.

Never once have I seen or pastored a dead church which was discipling people. I did pastor two churches that needed change badly. One was near extinction and survived by allowing me to teach them to make disciples and is doing well today. That church spent so much time just doing programs and they did not even know their neighbors. So I shut down almost every program to give them time to meet people in the community. At first they did not know what to do. Within a year every leader was leading one or two Bible studies in the community. They started their own Bible studies without any help from me. That is what a leader does. A leader leads. Another church is slowly dying simply because it will not reach people and is stuck in the past of programs instead of getting out of their homes and meeting people. They have spent one day too many focusing on the past as though it were heaven when the fact is that they grew the most while I pastored there and caused me great problems the whole time. When I told the deacons I would train them to make disciples they did not want any part of that and so I found about 20 new people to meet with each week. They did not like that either.

People who want to grow do not want to just hear sweet music but rather want to be told the truth. Most of the time it is the new Christians who can handle the truth and too often it is the old wineskins who cannot bear the pain of truth.

In the early 50s Dawson Trotman spoke of the change that was needed then. The two sermons he gave on the subject are at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Isn’t that what Jesus taught about being lukewarm?

Too often churches want to take the easy road of little work with big numbers. Too often it calls a Bible study, "discipleship" when it is nothing more than a time of "Share Your Ignorance" and little or no accountability. If there were accountability in churches we would see men and women teaching and training others to make disciples by helping them to grow in the faith both in knowledge and in application. They have forgotten the rigors of discipleship as Jesus taught his disciples. Jesus did not lecture his disciples but took them everywhere he went and then sent them out. How many churches today are intentionally making disciples as Jesus did? If they are not then they must change.

No doubt the majority of churches must change to reach people. If they were reaching people and discipling them we would see that evidence. We would not be crying for helpers in the church and having all kinds of problems with lukewarm troublemakers.

Never once have I seen or pastored a dead church which was discipling people. I did pastor two churches that needed change badly. One was near extinction and survived by allowing me to teach them to make disciples and is doing well today. That church spent so much time just doing programs and they did not even know their neighbors. So I shut down almost every program to give them time to meet people in the community. At first they did not know what to do. Within a year every leader was leading one or two Bible studies in the community. They started their own Bible studies without any help from me. That is what a leader does. A leader leads. Another church is slowly dying simply because it will not reach people and is stuck in the past of programs instead of getting out of their homes and meeting people. They have spent one day too many focusing on the past as though it were heaven when the fact is that they grew the most while I pastored there and caused me great problems the whole time. When I told the deacons I would train them to make disciples they did not want any part of that and so I found about 20 new people to meet with each week. They did not like that either.

People who want to grow do not want to just hear sweet music but rather want to be told the truth. Most of the time it is the new Christians who can handle the truth and too often it is the old wineskins who cannot bear the pain of truth.

In the early 50s Dawson Trotman spoke of the change that was needed then. The two sermons he gave on the subject are at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

Of course, you are starting from the premise that Warren and all his Warrenite followers in the Warrenite cult are correct and everyone who disagrees is wrong. Very cult-like mentality...and then add the idea of wishing the deaths of your own church members who resist this change. Very muchb similar to the touch not my anointed mentality of the WOF cult.

Very Scary.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[gb93433]

Of course, you are starting from the premise that Warren and all his Warrenite followers in the Warrenite cult are correct and everyone who disagrees is wrong. Very cult-like mentality...and then add the idea of wishing the deaths of your own church members who resist this change. Very muchb similar to the touch not my anointed mentality of the WOF cult.

You are simply assuming things which are not true. Some people I know work at Saddleback and are not at all what you describe. One I have known since a little kid. His parents were fundamentalist missionaries. Remember Lee Strobel works there. Would you call him a cult follower?

In the Bible it is written what read Jesus said about the lukewarm. They are repulsive to Christ.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

You are simply assuming things which are not true. Some people I know work at Saddleback and are not at all what you describe. One I have known since a little kid. His parents were fundamentalist missionaries. Remember Lee Strobel works there. Would you call him a cult follower?

In the Bible it is written what read Jesus said about the lukewarm. They are repulsive to Christ.

Don't know Lee Strobel, but if he is waiting patiently awaiting the death of some of his Church members because they oppose the seeker heresy of Saddleback, then yes, I would absolutely say that he has a cult like mentality.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Jim1999]

I should hope my local church is not waitiing for me to die for growth and change.................

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

Don't know Lee Strobel, but if he is waiting patiently awaiting the death of some of his Church members because they oppose the seeker heresy of Saddleback, then yes, I would absolutely say that he has a cult like mentality.

Are you really serious that you do not know who Lee Strobel is? Have you not read or heard about any of his books? He has written several books on apolegetics and has a TV program where he addresses issues while contending for the faith. He also has a website you can go to.

Saddleback is an SBC church and is alive and doing very well after over 20 years. While at the same time over 6,000 SBC churches do not baptize one person in a year. What does that say? Would anyone call that evangelism?

Jesus spoke about spewing the lukewarm out of his mouth. What would you call that? Jesus was against the lukewarm. He would rather they were dead or alive. If you have ever pastored a church you would know that it is the lukewarm folks who give all the trouble and make a pastor's life miserable.

Remember when Jesus said "Let the dead bury the dead."

This kind of discussion remionds me of the time when I listened ot a young man run down his pastor and church. At the end of what he had to say I asked him, "Who is living for Jesus Christ because of your life?" He could not name one person. He had attended a SBC most of his life and was home-schooled. His family read the Bible in the home but they really did not know it very well. They had become listeners but not doers and were deluded as James says. Many in the church today are lulled to sleep and deluded into thinking that attending church and a Bible study is what God requires.

In every church death comes before life. We must die to self. We must decrease so that Jesus will increase.

I sure would like a reference or actual quote of what you claim.

 

[Jim1999]

I don't know these chaps either. I have heard about them, but never read anything by them.

As far as numbers go, Jimmy Swaggart claims great numbers each week.

Many SB churches, as I understand it, are small, rural churches, so naturally baptisms and even conversions would be governed by their district.

It is God who gives the increase and not how well I preach. Sometimes teaching is the ministry in a given congregation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Are you really serious that you do not know who Lee Strobel is? Have you not read or heard about any of his books? He has written several books on apolegetics and has a TV program where he addresses issues while contending for the faith. He also has a website you can go to.

Saddleback is an SBC church and is alive and doing very well after over 20 years. While at the same time over 6,000 SBC churches do not baptize one person in a year. What does that say? Would anyone call that evangelism?

Jesus spoke about spewing the lukewarm out of his mouth. What would you call that? Jesus was against the lukewarm. He would rather they were dead or alive. If you have ever pastored a church you would know that it is the lukewarm folks who give all the trouble and make a pastor's life miserable.

Remember when Jesus said "Let the dead bury the dead."

This kind of discussion remionds me of the time when I listened ot a young man run down his pastor and church. At the end of what he had to say I asked him, "Who is living for Jesus Christ because of your life?" He could not name one person. He had attended a SBC most of his life and was home-schooled. His family read the Bible in the home but they really did not know it very well. They had become listeners but not doers and were deluded as James says. Many in the church today are lulled to sleep and deluded into thinking that attending church and a Bible study is what God requires.

In every church death comes before life. We must die to self. We must decrease so that Jesus will increase.

I sure would like a reference or actual quote of what you claim.

Were you talking to Isaiah by chance?

9 He said, "Go and tell this people:
" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."
11 Then I said, "For how long, O Lord?"
And he answered:
"Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the LORD has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken. 13 And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land."

Isaiah 6

I went to public school as a child. I am currently a public school teacher. Nobody is living for Christ because of my life, and neither are they doing so because of you and your life. They are living for Christ because of the grace of God. I can tell you, however, that through my Bible Study, that God has drawn my own dear wife and several others to Christ. You have mistaken me for whoever this is, or perhaps, in your arrogance to think your way is always right, and in your own proud stiff necked way, you assumed automatically that your way is right and that my opposition to the seeker heresy is being lukewarm and wrong.

As for the source, get ready, because it comes directly from Rick Warren on his pastors.com website:

If your church has been plateaued for six months, it might take six months to get it going again. If it's been plateaued a year, it might take a year. If it's been plateaued for 20 years, you've got to set in for the duration!

I'm saying some people are going to have to die or leave. Moses had to wander around the desert for 40 years while God killed off a million people before he let them go into the Promised Land. That may be brutally blunt, but it’s true. There may be people in your church who love God sincerely, but who will never, ever change.

Link

Very cult like mentality. Very sad and dangerous. Very elitest. They are right, we are evil. Just wait long enough and maybe we will die (God will kill us) because we don't agree with their worldly heresy. What a tragic misuse and abuse of scripture. What a tragic view of one's congregation. I am exceedingly glad that I am not a member of a Church whose pastor is waiting for me to die because I oppose the seeker heresy.

Finally, let me say that I am not running down my pastor. My pastor is a Godly man who believes in preaching the Word of God (that's the Bible for all of you in liberal land), and allowing God to bring the increase.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[gb93433]

I went to public school as a child. I am currently a public school teacher. Nobody is living for Christ because of my life, and neither are they doing so because of you and your life. They are living for Christ because of the grace of God. I can tell you, however, that through my Bible Study, that God has drawn my own dear wife and several others to Christ. You have mistaken me for whoever this is, or perhaps, in your arrogance to think your way is always right, and in your own proud stiff necked way, you assumed automatically that your way is right and that my opposition to the seeker heresy is being lukewarm and wrong.

As for the source, get ready, because it comes directly from Rick Warren on his pastors.com website:


Link

If you were wrong would you know it unless someone showed you from scripture. I think everything I have written can be demonstarted from scriopture. So show me where I am wrong if you believe that.

You can oppose the seeker stuff all you want. I do not believe you have one shred of evidence of truth about what Warren stands for. I read his books and thought the same thing until I talked with him and heard him speak. I am convinced you took that article completely out of context. That would be like I heard a pastor say one time about public education. He told the congregation that public education was of the devil and that nobody should be involved in it. Based on that could I call you of the devil? That is essentially what you have done to the article.

I read the article you gave the link to. I agree with everything he wrote. “I'm saying some people are going to have to die or leave.” Not too far from where you live was a liberal church that completely changed because the pastor was in it for the long haul. It took time for that church to go from being liberal to doing what scripture teaches. That pastor had a tough time and people did leave and many died. The pastor outlived his critics and the leaders who were liberal. When God works sometimes he does it gently and sometimes drastically. Take a look at Ananias and Sapphira.

If you truly believe, "They are living for Christ because of the grace of God" then, how would you interpret Philippians 3:17? How would you explain what Paul taught the elders in Acts 20?

Everything God did and does is because of His grace. However, that does not negate any admonitions given to us in scripture. Jesus commanded his disciples to make disciples, not sit idly by and do nothing. Jesus said that if they do not receive you then shake the dust off of your feet and move on. A person who does nothing will never be insulted or see adversity.

Jesus taught "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men. "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; "nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”

If people do not walk with God because of your life, then could you explain what Jesus meant in Mt. 5 when he said, “"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”

Closet Christians do not reach people. Those who carry the light and make it known, do.

If it all God's work and he never uses your obedience then explain the admonition in Rev. 2 & 3 along with what Jesus told His disciples in Mt. 28:19,20 and with what Paul told the elders in Acts 20.

Is not making disciples the task that God has given man? If it is then I must not neglect my responsibility. It seems to me that my responsibility to God and man is given in Mt. 28:19, 20 and Mt. 4:19.

Jesus never sat silently and expected others to come to Him. Show me one instance in scripture where God has done evangelism other than through others who know him. If that is not true then the Bible is a lie in Romans where it is written, "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!"

 

[JFox1]

Were you talking to Isaiah by chance?



Isaiah 6

I went to public school as a child. I am currently a public school teacher. Nobody is living for Christ because of my life, and neither are they doing so because of you and your life. They are living for Christ because of the grace of God. I can tell you, however, that through my Bible Study, that God has drawn my own dear wife and several others to Christ. You have mistaken me for whoever this is, or perhaps, in your arrogance to think your way is always right, and in your own proud stiff necked way, you assumed automatically that your way is right and that my opposition to the seeker heresy is being lukewarm and wrong.

As for the source, get ready, because it comes directly from Rick Warren on his pastors.com website:



Link

Very cult like mentality. Very sad and dangerous. Very elitest. They are right, we are evil. Just wait long enough and maybe we will die (God will kill us) because we don't agree with their worldly heresy. What a tragic misuse and abuse of scripture. What a tragic view of one's congregation. I am exceedingly glad that I am not a member of a Church whose pastor is waiting for me to die because I oppose the seeker heresy.

Finally, let me say that I am not running down my pastor. My pastor is a Godly man who believes in preaching the Word of God (that's the Bible for all of you in liberal land), and allowing God to bring the increase.

Joseph Botwinick

WOW! That Rick Warren is like a vulture: he waits for people to die!

 

[webdog]

WOW! That Rick Warren is like a vulture: he waits for people to die!

Don't base your opinion of Rick Warren by Joseph's posts. He has an agenda.

 

[Jim1999]

Isn't that the church where Dr. Bob's son went to serve on the ministerial staff?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yes it is.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JFox1]

It is a doctorine, page 39 of the snipers handbook... :thumbs:

 

[fromtheright]

I think he is a windbag who is in love with the sound of his own voice and his own self-importance.

 

[Friend of God]

JFox1,
The cartoon is great!!:laugh: :thumbs: