What do you think of Day Care

[mcdirector]

I agree bapmom. I think we need a suport system in place. If we condemn the system and don't offer support for those in the system, then the folks are going to hear condemnation of THEM and at that point we've lost them.

I think there are lots of ways we can offer support -- that will most likely vary depending on the location, size, membership of the church.

 

[James_Newman]

There are a whole host of issues associated, what about debt? How many families have two working parents because they are slaves to credit card companies? Do we keep quiet about what the bible says regarding the borrower being servant to the lender because someone with a credit card will feel condemned? Or should the church offer low interest debt consolidation loans to help these folks? Finding out that you have been believing a lie is never a happy experience, and some folks will 'get lost' when you shed light on the matter.

 

[bapmom]

but I don't think we are saying "keep silent".......we're just saying there are certain scenarios in which to deal with these issues, and other scenarios where we just minister to the immediate need, first.

The preaching is when something should be said......or if the couple is coming to the pastor for counselling and this might be a factor in their counselling time.

Let's use your credit card example.......the preacher most certainly says things about Biblical principles regarding debt and such.....but if we know that a particular family is in deep credit card debt, as a church member we do not go up to them and confront them on it. We let the Holy Spirit do the convicting through the pulpit preaching and through their own personal walk with God.

 

[mcdirector]

I don't believe we should keep quiet about anything. I just think we need to be careful in our teaching. It is my job to teach what's in the Bible - not to convict. What I find is that church leaders often teach harshly and not in love. AND they frequently don't give families time to make their own decisions.

Also, you want to condemn the system. I'm not sure the whole thing needs to be thrown out. It does need to be examined.

What I did say is IF you are going to condemn the system THEN let's provide support as we condemn they system for those in the system. Also, we need to provide support for those who really don't have a choice. Those folks do exist. They may be in the minority, but they do exist.

I'm just looking at ways we can help.

 

[blackbird]

I don't believe we should keep quiet about anything. I just think we need to be careful in our teaching. It is my job to teach what's in the Bible - not to convict. What I find is that church leaders often teach harshly and not in love. AND they frequently don't give families time to make their own decisions.

Also, you want to condemn the system. I'm not sure the whole thing needs to be thrown out. It does need to be examined.

What I did say is IF you are going to condemn the system THEN let's provide support as we condemn they system for those in the system. Also, we need to provide support for those who really don't have a choice. Those folks do exist. They may be in the minority, but they do exist.

I'm just looking at ways we can help.

Golly, Bitsy!!! You ladies are going on about Day Care like the families are "hooked" and can't get out and need help-----treating forms of help like a new style of AA

"Tired of Day Care??? Let us help!!!"

I'm surprised none of the ladies have commented on the "economic" pinch of day care

Mom/Dad put the kids in day care primarily so that it will release mom to work

More income means (1) possibly helping to reduce self made debt-----but why pay day care xxxxx amount of $$$$$$'s just to help yourself reduce debt??? I'm just saying that Day Care could possibly "cause" more debt----so why go in debt to get out of debt????

If folks would just stand back and do their math----it doesn't take Jethro Bodine to figure out that Day Care is the biggest expense in the family budget.

Throwing money at day care ----- there is absolutely no "return" on the so called investment----which is not an investment but a libility.

I can go to the chalk board and show a class of 30 women how to get out of day care----why get out of day care---and when they can get out of day care---------and 99.9999999% of 'um won't

WHY???

a five letter word











Pride



You destroy pride and you'll get that monkey off your back!!!!

And the next thing I know-----somebody will be posting how they can prove that Joseph & Mary had Jesus in day care and it was the best thing that ever happened to the little feller!!!

 

[mcdirector]

Obviously the men and women are approaching this from two different angles -- men say just stop it, it's not economically feasible. Women want to help through ministry.

I've got some quesitons though and I'll admit they are from a woman's perspective.

Is it ok for a woman to go to college and get a degree if she's going to have kids, stay home and never use it? That's not really economically feasible.
Is is ok for a woman to work if she doesn't /can't have kids?
Is it ok to postpone having kids to work?
Is it ok to work out of the house at all ever - even with kids ?
Is is ok to work if I don't have debt or if my mama can keep my kids or if my mama lives with me or . . .

What are the nuances that allow for women to work? or do we just say Working women stop! You are putting your children at risk. It costs too much. Please go home. The economic hardships are too great. The men are right, the women are wrong.

Right now I'm thinking I should say - My apologies for looking at nurturing alternatives. What a terrible ministry idea this has been.

Since I am a working woman, I'm taking 72 8th graders on a field trip today to my husband's plants so they can see how bricks are made. I feel like I'm beating my head against a brick wall - no pun intended. Heaven forbid that God intended for families to be different and make different decisions based on His plan for each of them. Does the Bible really preclude women working outside the home?

Is my frustration showing - or maybe it's just the head cold I've been struggling with. Off to my field trip.

 

[bapmom]

blackbird,

I like your class idea........maybe you could write it out and publish the lesson notes so they're available for people to teach in their churches?

Ive come to believe that God does not seem to be against women working outside the home completely. The Proverbs 31 woman seems to be a lady who is running her own business - or in the least doing some things from her home to raise some income. We need to remember that our home is our first priority, though.

And maybe Im coming at this from a little different perspective because Im in an inner-city church here in Milwaukee. A large portion of our congregation is made up of single moms OR moms who have made poor choices in life as to who they "hook their star" to, and now they find themselves with a husband who won't work. Most of our people were not raised in a Christian home, and we're all attempting to break the cycle here. But in the meantime, there's got to be something we can do for their kids.

I mean, to just say "well, you can survive without daycare" and offer a class on how (which I think is useful and actually very much needed!), but to not offer anything in the interim, isn't that like telling the family "Go and be thou fed and warm" without offering them any food or warm clothing?


Hey, maybe there's a reason God wants both men and women in the church.............

the men are going to concentrate on those logical, reasonable solutions to the big "disease"............

the women are going to concentrate on passing out bandaids, patching up wounds, and offering painkillers.............

 

[PJ]

Obviously the men and women are approaching this from two different angles -- men say just stop it, it's not economically feasible. Women want to help through ministry.

Good point. But if it were about economic feasibility, then my husband should've stayed home with the kids when they were young. My hourly rate is much more than hubbys. (BTW, our hourly wages are not an issue between us.)

Truthfully, I savor every hour I get to spend with my kids. If we had to do it all over again, we'd do it just the same.

Is it ok for a woman to go to college and get a degree if she's going to have kids, stay home and never use it? That's not really economically feasible.
Is is ok for a woman to work if she doesn't /can't have kids?
Is it ok to postpone having kids to work?
Is it ok to work out of the house at all ever - even with kids ?
Is is ok to work if I don't have debt or if my mama can keep my kids or if my mama lives with me or . . . What are the nuances that allow for women to work? or do we just say Working women stop! You are putting your children at risk. It costs too much. Please go home. The economic hardships are too great. The men are right, the women are wrong.

As you have pointed out, and I agree, these decisions are individual and can only be decided through spousal partnerships. On the other hand, single mothers have little choice in the matter. Do Steve and I feel we put our kids at risk? Heavens no!

Since I am a working woman, I'm taking 72 8th graders on a field trip today ... Heaven forbid that God intended for families to be different and make different decisions based on His plan for each of them.

Indeed! :laugh:

I hope you had a fun and successful field trip today. I worked also but didn't have nearly that much fun! I miss the boy's field trips.

 

[StefanM]

LADIES!!! LADIES!!! LAAAAAAAADEEEEEEESSSS!!!!!!


Group huggggg!!!!:1_grouphug: :1_grouphug:




That's better!!!!raying:


Let me give you a "scenero" and then lets think about this on the financial perspective!!!

Does it really PAY to have your kids in daycare???

Scenero:

Middle class family of (say) five

Daddy has a good job over at the Honda plant in Lincoln, AL----middle management----a few steps beyond "pushin' a broom!!!"

Brings home ---- lets just say----- $3000.00/month(give or take a few) after taxes

They can "squeek by" driving the latest model "Expadition"---(gas guzzlin' beast that it may be)

After all the expenses----house note, car note, insurance, gas, food, etc.----they're "gettin' by"----able to put a "tad" back in savings---but none the less---they're gettin' by---not by a wide margin----maybe sometimes its a little "tight" until next payday

So "Momma" decides----"I can get a job----we can move up to the Upper Middle Class" and no doubt---we can "cushion" our $$$$$$$$'s

So----with "Momma's" education applied at Auburn U------she lands that job in "no time flat"-----in fact, her husband thiinks its "amazing" that she'd get hired so fast---being she's an Auburn grad

BUT(and its a big one)

She "MUST" put the "Dawlin's" in day care

So they get their heads together and "sypher" the math

Her "take home" pay for the month will be $1200.00-----BUT(another big one)----factor in Gasoline for the car to and from work at $2.55/gal, factor in buyin' "new dud's"----make up, wardrobe---and lunch----and then ----------

She checks out day care costs(my, have we done that lately, ladies????)

3 kids in day care-----$600.00/month----"HOLY COWWWWWWWW!!!!!"

She's spending HALF her hard earned money on day care-----and the other half-----a measley $600.00 on gasoline and "necessary" things

Do you see????

HALF of her pay check goes to day care------so that she may be able to "help make ends meet"

If you "do your math"------day care DOES NOT PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

And thats just the financial end of the perspective!!!!

See????

What if her take-home pay is $2400 a month instead?

I agree with you that it doesn't make economic sense for someone to put three kids in day care for a job that brings home less than 15k. That's insanity. However, is this really the case? I would think that most people with a BA would not be working for such low wages.

 

[James_Newman]

What if her take-home pay is $2400 a month instead?

I agree with you that it doesn't make economic sense for someone to put three kids in day care for a job that brings home less than 15k. That's insanity. However, is this really the case? I would think that most people with a BA would not be working for such low wages.

It's certainly reasonable to believe that a woman with a degree could make enough money to cover the cost of daycare and then some. But is it right? That is really the issue. If there is no right/wrong aspect to putting children in daycare while momma persues a career, then the discussion is a waste of time.

 

[annsni]

Does her family need the money to survive or to keep up with the Joneses? We live on Long Island - a very hight cost of living area. Houses in my zip start at $500,000 and property taxes run $5,000 to $10,000 and up per year. DH took a cut in salary when he became a pastor 5 years ago - the salary was cut in 1/2. We were struggling and were planning to sell our house and downscale to a smaller house, lower taxes and hopefully move closer to church - within walking distance - so that we could drop a car. This is all instead of me going out to get a full-time job. Our priority is our family and for me to go out and get a job just doesn't work with that. I DO work for the church part time - I work from home keeping up the website and then go to church for 6 hours on Fridays to do computer work up there and I bring my kids (the little one is in preschool for 3 hours during that time then we have homeschool group afterwards). It's keeping our head above water - AND me with the kids. I was offered a job a few years back with a $60,000 salary to start. I turned it down. It would have been a great job and one that honestly, I was the only one around who could have dropped right into it with NO training (there was a software package that is super hard to run and I used to train people on it, so I know it inside out), but my children are more important to me than having a new car, a new bathroom or even clothes from the Gap rather than Salvation Army.

To me, there is a purpose for day care - it's SO needed for some families. There are families who are just making it with both parents working - or there are single parents who don't have the benefit of someone to watch their children while they work. But then you get the people who decide to sacrifice their kids for a trip to Disney or the latest 60" plasma TV. Or, they find their "identity" in their job rather than their "identity" in Christ - and their fulfillment in Him and therefore are sacrificing their family on the altar of status and recognition.

So - what is the motivation, what is the TRUE need here? If someone wants to sacrifice their family for more money just to be able to have lots of extras, then they're going to be truly sorry when those "things" break and become obsolete, and their children don't want to be around them anymore because they don't know them. Need is one thing - want is another, IMO.

 

[James_Newman]

I think Americans have a perverted idea of what "making it" is. We have grown accustomed to a general prosperity that was previously unknown. I'm certainly not saying it is wrong to have things and to have a nice home, etc... but Paul gave us this admonition:
1 Timothy 6:6-8
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

How many of us would truly be content with food and clothes? But if it came down to a choice of losing things, like your home, or putting the wife out to work, perhaps it might be better to have a smaller home. We can easily convince ourselves that perceived needs outweigh the benefit of having mother home with the children.

Proverbs 15:16-17
16 Better is little with the fear of the LORD than great treasure and trouble therewith.
17 Better is a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith.

 

[bapmom]

Does her family need the money to survive or to keep up with the Joneses? We live on Long Island - a very hight cost of living area. Houses in my zip start at $500,000 and property taxes run $5,000 to $10,000 and up per year. DH took a cut in salary when he became a pastor 5 years ago - the salary was cut in 1/2. We were struggling and were planning to sell our house and downscale to a smaller house, lower taxes and hopefully move closer to church - within walking distance - so that we could drop a car. This is all instead of me going out to get a full-time job. Our priority is our family and for me to go out and get a job just doesn't work with that. I DO work for the church part time - I work from home keeping up the website and then go to church for 6 hours on Fridays to do computer work up there and I bring my kids (the little one is in preschool for 3 hours during that time then we have homeschool group afterwards). It's keeping our head above water - AND me with the kids. I was offered a job a few years back with a $60,000 salary to start. I turned it down. It would have been a great job and one that honestly, I was the only one around who could have dropped right into it with NO training (there was a software package that is super hard to run and I used to train people on it, so I know it inside out), but my children are more important to me than having a new car, a new bathroom or even clothes from the Gap rather than Salvation Army.

To me, there is a purpose for day care - it's SO needed for some families. There are families who are just making it with both parents working - or there are single parents who don't have the benefit of someone to watch their children while they work. But then you get the people who decide to sacrifice their kids for a trip to Disney or the latest 60" plasma TV. Or, they find their "identity" in their job rather than their "identity" in Christ - and their fulfillment in Him and therefore are sacrificing their family on the altar of status and recognition.

So - what is the motivation, what is the TRUE need here? If someone wants to sacrifice their family for more money just to be able to have lots of extras, then they're going to be truly sorry when those "things" break and become obsolete, and their children don't want to be around them anymore because they don't know them. Need is one thing - want is another, IMO.

these are good points.......and I think this is really why for the most part we have to leave this issue to be dealt with through preaching and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[StefanM]

It is my personal belief that day care is not the most beneficial arrangement. and, as such, it should not be the primary option pursued. However, I recognize that it is necessary for some.

 

[gb93433]

Mothers on welfare stay home with their kids a lot and the cycle continues until someone decides to work. It is not so much about being home as it is about what you do with them and the example you give them.

Just last night on the TV the news reported that mothers spend an average of 4 more hours per weeks than their mothers did with them. Kids today are less confident and less self sufficient because their parents do everything for them.

I do not see the woman in Prov 31 as being totally a stay at home mom. She buys a field and plants it. She is resourceful and works hard not only at home but outisde of the home.

During WW 2 a lot of women worked and I would say that the world then was much more moral and crime was much less than today. I have never known my mother to not work. We had a farm. She was a stay at home mom. Everything was done at home.

Motivation in families usually has a long line of history just as does welfare.

 

[gb93433]

If I may lean in toward this quote . . .

When I have afternoon car duty, I'm seeing more and more parents who don't even get off their phones to say hello to their kids much less carry on a conversation with them! Oh this bothers me!

That is because the cell phone companies has led them to believe they need one in case of an emergency. Yet, crime is down compared to a few years ago.

 

[Alcott]

What do you think of Day Care?

I agree with it. Every day should be taken care of.

 

[tinytim]

I saw this and thought it was interesting to this discussion.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,261141,00.html

 

[annsni]

I heard that on the news this morning too. Made me think of this discussion too.

By the way, I homeschool my kids during atleast elementary and middle school. My 6 year old started Little League today and he was playing with the other kids just like they all were - but then he was also talking to the dads and coach like NONE of the other kids were. It was interesting to watch. He knows NONE of these people at all but was comfortable with everyone there.