What do you think of Open Theism?

[whatever]

Maybe some of them are making those kind of statements but when I look at their theism explained they hold to God being Omniscient and Omnipotent and on God’s knowledge go into a kind of compatibilitism to maintain the truth of free will and I see no difference between that and the Determinist view of renaming free will to free moral agency to their admitted compatiblitism for the purpose to maintain predestination. One does damage to God’s knowledge and the other to God’s character.

1. Open Theists believe in omniscience only if you let them define it. They would oppose the orthodox belief that God knows exactly what will happen in the future. They would say that God took a chance when suggesting that Satan should consider Job. I say that God takes no chances.

2. Should God choose to create an unrighteous person for the express purpose of expressing His wrath against unrighteousness then you would have no valid complaint against God's character.

 

[Benjamin]

The answer was that from His birth to the beginning of His ministry, God made it so Jesus did not know all things. When His ministry started, then He knew all things.

Would that be considered Open Theism?

Heck No! God can be in three Persons, dwell among man, and be tempted while not knowing all at the same time (giving up knowing) but yet God doesn’t have the power to allow for free will creatures as He created them because He had to pre-determine them and is not able to interact with them freely in time because of His all knowing. (can’t give up knowing) We should just disregard and explain away all the scripture showing that He does interact freely with His creatures and it’s still not called an attack on the Bible for the sake of holding to Classical theism so just rest it all on convenient doctrinal interpretations of what God’s foreknowledge must consist of and force it to fit. Hope that helps.

 

[whatever]

We should just disregard and explain away all the scripture showing that He does interact freely with His creatures and it’s still not called an attack on the Bible for the sake of holding to Classical theism so just rest it all on convenient doctrinal interpretations of what God’s foreknowledge must consist of and force it to fit. Hope that helps.

We need not disregard or explain away any Scripture in order to affirm God's perfect determination of all that has or will come to pass.

 

[Benjamin]

We need not disregard or explain away any Scripture in order to affirm God's perfect determination of all that has or will come to pass.

(Gen 6:6) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

(Gen 22:12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

(Exo 4:9) And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dry land.

(Exo 13:17) And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

(Exo 16:4) Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

(Exo 32:14) And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

(Num 14:11) And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have showed among them?

(Deu 8:2) And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.

(Deu 9:13) Furthermore the LORD spoke unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

(Deu 9:14) Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

(Deu 9:18) And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

(Deu 9:19) For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the LORD was wroth against you to destroy you. But the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also.

(Deu 9:20) And the LORD was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.

(1Sa 2:29) Wherefore kick ye at my sacrifice and at mine offering, which I have commanded inmy habitation; and honorest thy sons above me, to make yourselves fat with the chiefest of all the offerings of Israel my people?

(1Sa 2:30) Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

(1Sa 15:10) Then came the word of the LORD unto Samuel, saying,

(1Sa 15:35) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.

(1Ki 22:20) And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

(2Ki 20:1) In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.

(2Ki 20:2) Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,

(2Ki 20:3) I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done thatwhichis good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

(2Ki 20:4) And it came to pass, before Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,

(2Ki 20:5) Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.

(2Ki 20:6) And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

(1Ch 21:15) And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

(2Ch 32:31) Howbeit in thebusinessof the ambassadors of the princes of Babylon, who sent unto him to inquire of the wonder that was done in the land, God left him, to try him, that he might know all thatwas in his heart.

(Jdg 2:22) That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.

(Isa 5:3) And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, between me and my vineyard.

(Isa 5:4) What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

(Isa 5:5) And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:

(Isa 5:6) And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.

(Isa 5:7) For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

 

[Benjamin]

We need not disregard or explain away any Scripture in order to affirm God's perfect determination of all that has or will come to pass.

(Jer 3:6) The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

(Jer 3:19) But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.

(Jer 3:20) Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.

(Jer 7:31) And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

(Jer 18:7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

(Jer 18:8) If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

(Jer 18:9) And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

(Jer 18:10) If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

(Jer 18:11) Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

(Jer 19:5) They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it, neither came it into my mind:

(Jer 26:3) If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

(Jer 32:35) And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

(Jer 38:17) Then said Jeremiah unto Zedekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of hosts, the God of Israel; If thou wilt assuredly go forth unto the king of Babylon's princes, then thy soul shall live, and this city shall not be burned with fire; and thou shalt live, and thine house:

(Jer 38:18) But if thou wilt not go forth to the king of Babylon's princes, then shall this city be given into the hand of the Chaldeans, and they shall burn it with fire, and thou shalt not escape out of their hand.

(Jer 38:20) But Jeremiah said, They shall not deliver thee. Obey, I beseech thee, the voice of the LORD, which I speak unto thee: so it shall be well unto thee, and thy soul shall live.
:type:

 

[Marcia]

Maybe some of them are making those kind of statements but when I look at their theism explained they hold to God being Omniscient and Omnipotent and on God’s knowledge go into a kind of compatibilitism to maintain the truth of free will and I see no difference between that and the Determinist view of renaming free will to free moral agency to their admitted compatiblitism for the purpose to maintain predestination. One does damage to God’s knowledge and the other to God’s character.

They are not just saying man has free will; they are saying God does not know the future. But God says he knows the end from the beginning. There's one problem. right there.

How can God send revelation to prophets in the OT if He doesn't know the future? How can any prophecy from God be trusted? Can we say that God did not know where Adam was in Gen. 3 when God said "Adam, where are you?" In fact, if God does not know everything, how can we trust anything in the Bible at all?? These are just some of the problematic issues raised by Open Theism.

Well maybe you don’t think determinist teachings have a real consequence to the basic teachings of the nature of the God of the Bible, but I find it much more damaging and personally if I had to pick between the two I would pick OVT over Determinism.

I am not a Calvinist, if that's what you mean.

 

[Marcia]

Benjamin, what are you saying by posting the passages you did?

I wish people wouldn't just post bible passages without saying what their point is. In the future, I don't think I will respond unless that's done.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

How do you reconcile those passages with this passage?

Heb. 13:8

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

It seems that God is unchanging or immutable in his character.


Or how about this one,
Num. 23:19

God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Whatever you may want to suggest your list of Scriptures teach it would appear that God has an immutable character and to suggest otherwise goes directly against what these passages clearly state.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Marcia:
They are not just saying man has free will; they are saying God does not know the future. But God says he knows the end from the beginning. There's one problem. right there.

How can God send revelation to prophets in the OT if He doesn't know the future? How can any prophecy from God be trusted? Can we say that God did not know where Adam was in Gen. 3 when God said "Adam, where are you?" In fact, if God does not know everything, how can we trust anything in the Bible at all?? These are just some of the problematic issues raised by Open Theism.

I don’t want to get into a position of defending OVT as I don’t agree with them, but basically they would say God knows all that is knowable, He can’t in truth know something that hasn’t happened yet, and they do not say God doesn’t know the future at all, they say the future is partly open and partly determined as in the route He will take to accomplish His end is open or that God knows the things He has decided to bring about but His plan is not a detailed blueprint but rather a broad intention.

I am not a Calvinist, if that's what you mean.

Honestly I thought I may have remembered that you said that before, so that probably wasn’t a good way to respond, sorry, but it’s hard to tell sometimes and to turn around a Calvinist phrase if you stick to determinism you will eventually end up one. :smilewinkgrin: I know you study at SES and I even have a couple of Geisler’s books but haven’t read them enough yet to know what you are being taught or believe and so far find him to be a pretty opinionated read; anyway for now I kicked them aside for a book on evangelism.

Benjamin, what are you saying by posting the passages you did?

I wish people wouldn't just post bible passages without saying what their point is. In the future, I don't think I will respond unless that's done.

Sorry, I thought it would be clear after saying God interacts with His creatures and a determinist would have to explain scripture away; then with the incoming… “we do not have to explain away any scripture to affirm God’s perfect determination”… I wanted to see what they wanted do with a sample of scripture that shows God interacting and things not being predetermined.
I don’t have time or desire to argue over every passage and as that was just a taste it could go on forever; I will just let one do their own exegesis on the proof text.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by BP/T
How do you reconcile those passages with this passage?

I just figure you have a distorted interpretation of them and would suggest they support your view clearly against an abundance of scripture to the contrary.

 

[whatever]

Sorry, I thought it would be clear after saying God interacts with His creatures and a determinist would have to explain scripture away; then with the incoming… “we do not have to explain away any scripture to affirm God’s perfect determination”… I wanted to see what they wanted do with a sample of scripture that shows God interacting and things not being predetermined.
I don’t have time or desire to argue over every passage and as that was just a taste it could go on forever; I will just let one do their own exegesis on the proof text.

Let's make it easy - pick one passage, and let's discuss it. None of those passages that you listed negates passages like Job 1:21 ("The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away") or Gen. 50:20 ("you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good") or Acts 4:27-28 ("for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.")

You got verses, we got verses, all God's children got verses. Let's dig into a specific passage or two and see what we find. You get first pick.

 

[EdSutton]

I'll jump (not to be accidentally confused with J.Jump ya' unnastand ) back into this for a second to toss in that the NKJV usually translates as 'relent' in the OT where God is concerned, the words that the KJV usually translates as 'repent'. I like and prefer the usual rendering of this as 'relent' from the NKJV.

Ed

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I just figure you have a distorted interpretation of them and would suggest they support your view clearly against an abundance of scripture to the contrary.

Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself?

 

[npetreley]

You got verses, we got verses, all God's children got verses.

Duck Soup is one of my favorite movies of all time.

 

[Marcia]

I don’t want to get into a position of defending OVT as I don’t agree with them, but basically they would say God knows all that is knowable, He can’t in truth know something that hasn’t happened yet, and they do not say God doesn’t know the future at all, they say the future is partly open and partly determined as in the route He will take to accomplish His end is open or that God knows the things He has decided to bring about but His plan is not a detailed blueprint but rather a broad intention.

You're right about how they term the future. But I see God as being outside time, so there is no "future" for him. It all exists now. This to me is a changed view of God's nature that is significant, and one with which I vigorously disagree. I mean, who wants a God who is in time and is subject to a partially unknown future? I don't see how the Creator of the universe - and the Creator of time itself - could be in this position. It reminds me a little of the Mormon type god - more in the image of man.

Honestly I thought I may have remembered that you said that before, so that probably wasn’t a good way to respond, sorry, but it’s hard to tell sometimes and to turn around a Calvinist phrase if you stick to determinism you will eventually end up one. I know you study at SES and I even have a couple of Geisler’s books but haven’t read them enough yet to know what you are being taught or believe and so far find him to be a pretty opinionated read; anyway for now I kicked them aside for a book on evangelism.

Right, I am an SES student but I examine what Geisler says like I examine everyone else. I do happen to agree with a lot of what he says. I don't think Geisler is anymore opinionated than any other theologian or outspoken Christian. Look at people like Sproul, James White, D James Kennedy, MacArthur, Campolo, etc. etc.! Pretty opinonated. :smilewinkgrin: