What do you think

As stated before, I didn't know anything about J.O. so I went to the website and read the transcripts from three of his sermons. All 3 contained a pretty good Gospel presentation, and none of them were prosperity based. Quoting Osteen again:

"But sometimes we live in this fantasy world where we think we're going to come to this place in life, you know, somewhere over the rainbow, just like the movies, we're going to live happily ever after with no more problems."

Don't sound like any prosperity preacher I've heard. What's really sad is that some seem to feel an overwhelming compulsion to attack anyone who looks, talks, or acts different from their cookie cutter ideas.

 

One more from Osteen:

QUOTE: "See, the Bible says the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin. You don't have to do it. Leave it up to God. God can do it for you. And see, I'm thoroughly convinced that showing people God's love and mercy and forgiveness has a far greater impact than just continually beating people over the head for every single mistake they make. See, all of us make mistakes. We're all human. Jesus said, "Let him without sin cast the first stone." And I know some people when I talk like that, they say, "Joel, you make it way too easy. Nobody's ever going to get saved unless you dangle them over the fires of hell and scare them a little bit." Some people's main doctrine is to try to scare the "hell" of out people. Victoria does that when she's driving. (Laughter)

But seriously, some people think the only way to reach people is to point out all their faults and to shame them and to belittle them and to manipulate their emotions to where they feel so much condemnation and guilt that they finally feel like such a no good rotten loser that they'll repent and turn to God. But friends, I believe just the opposite is true. The Bible says "It is the goodness of God that leads people to repentance."

And if people can ever really see how good our God is, they'll come running to Him. If they can ever really see how awesome His love is and how unlimited His mercy is and how incredibly kind and compassionate and forgiving He is, they will want to serve a God like that. If we can ever really just show the world what our God is really and truly like. I know some people, you think, Joel, this sound too good to be true. What about all the terrible things I've done in the past? I've cheated a lot of people. I've stolen. I've cursed God's name. I haven't been faithful and on and on and on we can go.

But friends, I'm here to tell you today, no matter what you've done, no matter how many mistakes you've made, no matter how big of a mess you have made in your life, I want you to know today that God is still not mad at you. Jesus is standing before each one of you right now with His arms held open wide. He's got a smile on his face and He's saying, Come unto me. Give me a chance with your life. You've tried it on your own. Let me show you what true peace and true happiness and true fulfillment is really all about. Jesus wants to be your best friend." END QUOTE

I couldn't agree more!

 

Cookie cutter ideas have nothing to do with it. This is about Scripture, and the authority of God's word. Osteen has admitted to not preachign about sin, to being a prosperity gospel. Again, the fact that he is being defended is simply incredible.

The following is from a news article in teh Detroit News.

Osteen, 41, does not sweat, yell or cry for sinners to repent. He preaches an energetic, New Age gospel of hope and self-help -- simple Scripture-based motivational messages, notably devoid of politics and hot-button policy issues.

They come to listen to messages of self-empowerment -- not just salvation.

He is unapologetic that he lives well in a $1 million house in an upscale neighborhood, and that he is pouring the church's offerings into the Compaq Center these days and cut back on its charitable giving.

"I feel like God wants us to prosper," he says. "My dad grew up in the Depression. ... It is not God's will for anybody to live where you can't support your family. ... (Houston Astros pitcher) Roger Clemens just signed for $18 million -- man, don't tell me I can't have a nice house and send my kids to college."

Osteen says if the church "had that vow-of-poverty mentality, I don't know if we could raise $80 million" for the Compaq Center.

http://www.detnews.com/2005/religion/0502/15/E01-89935.htm

 

I couldn't possdibly care less what the Detroit News thinks Joel Osteen believes. Their opinion really means nothing. Who knows what their agenda is. Once again I refer you to the sermon excerps I posted. Those are not properity, new age or self help sermons. The Gospel is presented clearly, and sin and hell are addressed.

And the price of his house matters because?????
And imagine a growing church putting more of it's resources into a building program. That's never happened before, huh?

 

The truth remains that Joel Osteen is a false teacher. The few snippets you have presented are weak, and seem to be abnormal. The Detroit News had no agenda. This article was done at the time his Detroit appearance was being made public. They were just giving an opinion. They had no axe to grind. They simply wrote what he told them and what they found by looking. That is what is remarkable. They weren't trying to make him look bad. He did that all by himself.

I quoted the part about the price of his house because the quote that goes along with it shows that he is a prosperity preacher. It was a direct piece of evidence proving my earlier assertion that you denied, or at least doubted.

Why are you defending him?

 

I surprised that this is being argued. I didn't think any one took Osteen as a true preacher. In fact, I thought Imonk had really exagerated that acceptance emoung evangelicals.

 

So now I''m really curious. If a $1mil house in Houston makes you s prosperity preacher, what does my house make me? I live in a 2500 sq ft house that is worth around $200k. But that's because it's in Arkansas. If it was in an upscale Houston area it could easily be worth more than double that. Does that make me a prosperity preacher? Maybe just a prosperity wannabe? What's the cutoff for what size house you can have and still be a true preacher?

If you think main stream media has no agenda then you have serious blinders on.

You guys say he's a false teacher, yet you do not present any evidence whatsoever, other than what someone else says about him (Detroit News)

If you've followed what I've said throughout this thread, all I knew about Joel O. was that someone whom I trust said he is the real deal. When everyone started talking about how he didn't present the Gospel, I went to the Lakewood Church website and pulled up 3 sermons. These were random. The sermons are divided into series and I pulled one sermon from each of the first three series. In each sermon, there is no prosperity gospel preached, sin, hell and the need for repentance are addressed, and a very clear invitation to come to Christ is presented. So either I'm the luckiest guy in the world to find the only three good sermons he's ever preached, or you guys don't know what you're talking about. I'm guessing the latter.

 

Which of these statements do you disagree with?

"I feel like God wants us to prosper," (Jer. 29:11)

"It is not God's will for anybody to live where you can't support your family."

 

One other thing, you seem to be stressing over them buying the $80mil arena. Do a little math. If the average church running 100 in attendance meets in a $300,000 building (I'm guessing that's close to normal), that would be a cost of $3,000 per person for facilities. If Lakewood, which is running attendance of 30,000, spends $80 mil for the arena, that's only a facility cost of $2,667 per person. Sounds like pretty good stewardship to me

 

I am not stressing over his house or over an 80 million dollar arena. I care about what he preaches. He is a false teacher. There can be no real doubt about that. I have provided some proof. There is other proof all around. It still boggles me that this is even being discussed.

Why are you defending him?

 

"The Detroit News had no agenda. This article was done at the time his Detroit appearance was being made public. They were just giving an opinion. They had no axe to grind. They simply wrote what he told them and what they found by looking. That is what is remarkable. They weren't trying to make him look bad. He did that all by himself."

For better or for worse, I know very little about Joel Osteen. But in the interest of fair play, I think it needs to be stated that the media's perceived agenda, or lack thereof, is usually predicated on where one stands in regards to the issue in question.

In 1993 another Detroit media outlet, WJBK T.V., did a series of reports about Jack Hyles and the First Baptist Church of Hammond. Hyles' supporters screamed "bloody murder", and decried the station & the reporters as virtual puppets of Satan. Non-supporters largely viewed the series as simply the product of investigative journalism.

Now in 2005 a Detroit newspaper publishes an Op/Ed piece on Joel Osteen. Supporters seem to see it as slanted & biased; and (Surprise!) non-supporters see it as factual, level-headed reporting.

[ May 25, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: LarryN ]

 

You have provided zero proof. Show me something from the lips of Joel Osteen that makes him a false teacher. All you have provided is others opinions of him. show me an example of false teaching.

I've provided quote after qoute where he is Biblically solid, you say those are abnormal but you don't provide any evidence.

What I see is a brother in Christ being accused of being a false teacher, which is by far the worst thing you can say about someone who is called to preach and entrusted to shepherd a church. That's a good enough reason defend him for me.

 

I did provide proof. Go back and read his reasoning behind his house. The idea of riches and money being the evidence of God's blessing is pure prosperity gospel, and is unbiblical. Our Lord had no place to lay his head. Those in Hebrews 11:28 lived in caves and holes in the ground. That alone proves Osteen to be a false teacher.

Do a google search for Joel Osteen and start reading. You will find more information than I can post here. This is not secret. There is no reason for you not to know it.

 

Well Pastor Larry, since I'm willing to bet that you live in a house, or at least an apartment, as opposed to Jesus who had none or the 1st century church who lived underground to avoid persecution, I'm calling you out as a false teacher. No way you can live that far above Jesus' standard of living and not be a prosperity teacher.

Your arguments are rediculous.

I'll say it again. I did the Google search. The first website is Joel Osteen.com. The 2nd is Lakewood church. I read the first three sermons on the list and all three were dead on right. I'm sure I could find guys like you further down the list who desire to tear someone down, but I really have no desire to read what they have to say.

 

Question and answer from an interview with J.O.

QUESTION: Your book makes the case that if we confidently wait and work, God will make our wrongs right--we'll see God's justice. In parts of the book, it seems like God's justice is expressed in terms of prosperity.

ANSWER: I feel like that gives a bad rap because I don’t in the least bit consider myself a prosperity-type preacher. I don’t think I’ve ever preached a message on finances.

It’s just more an attitude of God wants to bless us where we are. When I say 'bless,' I don’t mean go drive 10 Mercedes and stuff like that. I’m talking about being happy and having good marriages and good relationships. I think sometimes I get grouped in with a prosperity-type... like that’s all I focus on, but I don’t mean it to come off like that.

 

WOW! You and me are going to Vegas Baby!

Okay, well I'll take your word for it though I am very surprised. I have watched him on TV quite a bit and I have never heard him speak about trusting in Jesus (for salvation: not cash money$$$) or repentence or sin or hell, etc. Coincedently enough, I was just talking about him this weekend and I mentioned that he is not a full scale prosperty teacher (like his other Texas counterparts, namely Crefto Dollar). He just seems to be all about positive thinking and not so much about human depravity and the need of a solution, namely the work of the Holy Spirit made possible by the forgivness of sins made possible by the sacrifice of Christ. He may indeed actually be saved, though I doubt a true believer will grow much under his preaching.

Surely this is not a real translation. The I in this verse IS God. And this is the most taken out of context verse that exists. It is written to the Jews in the exile (embedded in a letter in fact), speaking specifically about God's plan to return them from the exile after 70 years to Judea.

 

That was really irrelevant, since I didn't say anything about living in a house. If you work with Osteen's material as well as you work with mine, it is no wonder you are confused.

No they're not. If I wanted to take the time, I could say much more. But I don't have the time. You can find out the truth if you are interested.

Why do you have no desire to find out about this guy? That is troubling. The truth needs to be told and needs to be believed.

 

Well, I'm pretty much done here. I must say though that to make an accusation as serious as you have made against Joel Osteen, and then when called on to provide proof, to tell me to go look it up because you have don't have time is extremely low class. I did take the time to read three sermons and two interviews, posted excerps from each, where everything J.O. said was spot on. All you can say is he's a false teacher, go look it up. The moderators should step in and either delete your post or make you give proof of what you say. But, O wait, you are a moderator. Says a lot about the integrity of this board.

Peace out

 

"Prosper" in the OT does not necessarily mean to be rich and wealthy. There were lots of poor believers then and in the NT and now. It is not a sin to be in the lower economic classes, but prosperity teachers say it is.

This passage in Jer. is also to the Jews telling them that one day God would restore them after the Babylonian captivity. It is not to be read by an individual as a promise to every person.

In several translations, the word "prosper" is not even used because the meaning of the Hebrew word is "welfare," "wholeness," and "peace." The word here is "shalom." God is talking about restoration of Israel.

 

I've been looking into Osteen for the past several months. I have read many of his sermons and heard him many times on TV, and have read several chapters in his book.

He is a word-faith teacher and a New Thought (positive thinking as a way to alter reality) teacher. I heard him give one sermon about how our fears can kill people (a man lost his wife because he was worried about losing her - she was not sick or old). I also heard him say on Easter that Jesus, after he died, went to hell to battle Satan. This is a Word Faith doctrine.

Here are some links on Osteen:

http://www.myfortress.org/JoelOsteen.html

"The Leaven of Lakewood" by Bob Liichow (Liichow used to be a prosperity preacher)
http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/lichow2.htm

http://cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm

In his book, Osteen states that we must declare blessings out loud to get them. He says we "create" with our mouth. He puts a big emphasis on saying things out loud. This is all Word Faith teaching (it is also New Thought -- Word Faith has a lot of New Thought beliefs in it).

He thinks it's wrong to be negative. But the Bible is not about negative and positive; it's about good and evil, and sin and redemption. There's a lot of negative stuff in the Bible.