I previously said:
I may have "hinted" in conversion to Catholicism in jest, but I mainly want
you to seek for the ultimate truth, even if it does not lead you to the Catholic
Church. And that is certainly encumbant upon me as well...
I rather think that is your entire motive, Bill, and for what gain....I have no idea.
What, to convert you to Catholicism or to seek the truth?
Be advised that I cannnot "convert" you to anything - your own free will must be active in what you choose - and all I can do is point out what I believe to be the truth.
Come, Holy Spirit..............
Do you gain reward for generating members to the Vatican's coffers, or do you
think you will gain reward in heaven for convincing someone of an issue about
blood and meat.? Ask yourself what God's desire is? What is the Gospel.?
I gain reward in heaven in loving the Lord with my whole heart, mind and strength and to comply with His commandments. The "Vatican coffers" is the furthest thing from my mind.
As for "blood and meat," you still don't get it, do you? Oh well, all I can do is speak in terms the best I can to show what I believe to be Christ's teachings and ask the Holy Spirit to take over and do the rest.
What is the gospel? It is the
Good News of and about Jesus Christ! For about the first 30 to 50 years after Pentecost, the "Good News" was oral only, not one whit of it was ever written down, until later, when Matthew, Mark Luke and John committed it to papyrus.
What is the Good News ? What is supposed to be spread to all corners of the
earth before Christ will return? What is the message of the messengers of Christ?
What is the object of our faith? Who was the sacrifice for our sins?
None of those could be answered with ......" ummmmm....believing that wine
and bread is the actual body of Christ". !!
Singer, the Eucharist is only a small part of the whole gospel message! The need for baptism is also called for, reconsiliation too (per John 20:22-23, which is another part of scripture I would love for you to "analyze" for me) as well as what constitutes a marriage, how we are to treat our neighbors, including anointing then with holy chrism when they are sick and/or near death, and also the great commission given in -
Holy Orders. And I could go on and on and on.......
I last said:
Why would you choke at Catholic attempts to convert you to their way of
believing, when we Catholics are subjected to it constantly? (Not this conference,
specifically, but in so many I post in......)
That's a good question, Bill. WHY DO people propagate their beliefs.
The answer is quite simple - They do so because they have the truth to salvation! And as Matthew 28:19 would have the apostles do before Christ ascended, we are to "make disciples of all nations."
I do it because I received Christ's forgiveness myself, experienced an amazing
Baptism of the Holy Spirit complete with tongues, accepted His work on the
cross as final and rest in assurance of eternal life. That is what I like to share
and that is what His Great Commission is. The topic of ''actual blood and meat''
get in the way of revealing that the real issue is getting people to "believe in Jesus
Christ" in the first place. Your agenda disrupts mine....
Do my attempts to
share Jesus get in the way of your agenda ?
Your "agenda" has no bearing on mine, which is mainly defending the Catholic faith from the untruths said about it.
As for "tongues," I cannot know of the authenticity of your experience, other then to say that this phenomenon occurs within some occult religions - Voodoo, for example. And by the way, it has been documented in contempory times in Catholicism - The famous
stigmatic,
Therese Neumann, is documented to to have spoken in tongues that complies with what the phenomenon was intended to produce in scripture - that others will understand what you are saying even while they do not speak in our own tongue.
On the whole, I am very skeptical of "tongues," just as I am skeptical of the Blessed Virgin Mary apparing on glass windows and tortillas.
I last said:
Jesus does this Himself, Singer, in John 6, and all I am doing is showing the forshadowing
that the feeding of the multidude in the OT has for the new covenant "food" that is being introduced here.
Right and Jesus does it to reveal his coming sacrifice and the availability of eternal life that will follow because of his blood that will be SHED on the cross, NOT CONSUMED
by his followers. See the light, Brother.
Then why does Christ refer to "eating his body and drinking His blood"? Is it not obvous to you that the Jews were disgusted with this statement, taking Him at His literal word, as did some of His own disciples?
And if they took Him wrong, why does He not correct them with, "Oh no, I meant it figuratively when I said 'eat my body and drink my blood.'"
It is simple as that, Singer.....
I last said:
Hummmm, I never thought of that! The brazen serpant just may be sort of a prefigurement
of what is to come, I suppose, but lifting up the host and the chalice is for for all of us to
view and adore more then anything else.
Haha...I thought maybe I was wrongfully putting ideas in your head. Sorry.
Is the brazen serpent something like the golden calf ?
Yes, it became that way. And as I recall, they were punished for it.
Please don't take the prefigurement too far in any analysis, and of course, the brazen serpant is not God, if it were considered so, then it would become an idol, wouldn't it?
But the Eucharist
is God, if indeed, it becomes Christ's body and blood, soul and divinity, wouldent it?
A whole nother matter.......
Would that possibly include "obeying all that He commands you" as well, Singer?
Considering that a person can receive salvation on their deathbed or in a doomed airplane before it hits the ground, or to a 6 yr old, .....................NO, I doubt that it includes obeying all the He commands. Works demand obedience which yield rewards in heaven.
Salvation is a whole different topic.
If you believe in Christ, including the profound intention of obeying all that He commands you, then you suddenly die, you certainly will not be penalized for
not having the opportunity to do some of this "obeying," right? God judges the heart, like Christ judged the heart of the good thief on the cross.
He had little opportunity to "obey all of what He has commanded all of us to do" either.
But if you "believe in Jesus" but then consciously withhold what becomes obvious to you is a commandment of Christ, such as to subject yourself to His church and the authority He infused it with, that that is a whole nother matter.
And you actually think that Catholics don't "believe in Him," Singer?
You know very well that your 'believing in Him'' includes
1. Belonging to a church that was supposedly started by Christ
2. Never missing Mass
3. Believing that bread and wine are the actual blood and meat
4. Not relying on the bible as sola scriptura
5. Supposing a mere sinful man can forgive your sins
6. Hailing Mary as the Mother of God
7. Thinking that the Body of Christ is the Catholic Church
8. Thinking that the Kingdom of God is the Catholic Church
9. Not accepting Grace by Faith as the final answer.
10. Did I forget something ?
There was a time, I did none of those things, and by my own free will of choice, I not only embrace what you list above, I do so with gusto!
By the way, in #5, please discuss with me, John 20:22-23
But yes, you did miss a few!
Such as:
Prohibition against
artificial birth control is one that comes to mind, and the scriptural prohibition against divorce.
In 1930, all non-Catholic Christians stood with the Catholic Church is considering artificial birth control a grevious sin.
Where are they today, Singer?
There are more, but this is enough to get you to thinking real hard................
Oh yes, the RCC does not preach that Jesus' work was complete on the cross
without some additions of your own.
Why then did Jesus say "It is finished"....?
First of all, document for me please, where the Catholic Church abridges the completeness of the work on the cross.
And what is your interpretation of "It is finished"? Mine is, he finished the work of redemption as the Father sent Him to do. But it cannot be construed to go so far that once a person is saved, he/she cannot loose that salvation by grevious sin. ("Once Saved, Always Saved.")
* And of course your answer will be that..................
(No, forget it...I'm beginning to read your mind is all)
Singer (Saved by Grace through Faith. Period)
So far, you are batting zero as to reading my mind, so don't try it But for starters, I provided you one above for you to mull over!
God bless,
PAX
Bill+†+
"Listen, my son, to what I tell you now. Do not be troubled,
nor disturbed by anything, nor pain, Are you not under my
shadow, my protection? And am I not life and health? Do
you need anything else? Do not be troubled, or take thought
of your uncle's illness, for he will not die of this seizure,
and is well even now"
What the vision of Our Lady of Guadalupe said to Juan Diego,
just before he discovered that his uncle was completely cured.