What does a Calvinist do with this verse?

[Jarthur001]

I thought I would post this in the "Other Denominations" also.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=785241#post785241

Thanks....

In Christ..James

 

[Jim1999]

This passage must be linked with verse 14 and it represents the substitutional place of Christ's death on the cross in the biblical view of soteriology and not in isolation. The death on the cross of Christ was sufficient for all, but instead of some. It was effectual for the elect, past, present and future. No problem to true Calvinists, in my opinion.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I thought I would post this in the "Other Denominations" also.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=785241#post785241

Thanks....

In Christ..James

2Cor5:14-15, is it. Now read chapter 4 the same verses, to see the principle behind the right understanding of your text. "Knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus shall also raise up us by Jesus ... for all these things He did for your sakes THAT THE ABUNDANT GRACE MIGHT THROUGH THE THANKSGIVING OF MANY REDOUND TO THE GLORY OF GOD". .... For the love of Christ constraineth us ... that if One died for all, then were all dead. And indeed (kai) He died for (US, raised up by Jesus) all, that they (= 'we' "all") which live, should not henceforth live unto themselves, but but unto Him who died and rose again for them (= 'us' "all")." Here's that "thanksgiving" 4:15 speaks of.

NO difficulty for a Calvinist - all the dificulty for the free-willer.

 

[billwald]

How does the Calvinist know that the pronouns Apply to him, personally? That he is one of the elect?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Billwald: How does the Calvinist know that the pronouns Apply to him, personally? That he is one of the elect?

HP: Uh, let’s see. Is it not by that 'absolute knowledge' of their 'faith' they speak about?

Why does this sound so contradictory, absolute knowledge, and faith?

 

[Brother Bob]

His Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God but to go so far as absolute knowledge you make faith "void". That is too far but I don't like people who say we don't know anything either. I know I am not the man I used to be. I know a burden left me when Jesus came into my life. I think I can say I know I will never "go back", but it still comes down to "faith".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: Uh, let’s see. Is it not by that 'absolute knowledge' of their 'faith' they speak about?

Why does this sound so contradictory, absolute knowledge, and faith?

Calvinists speak of certainty of faith. And get ridiculed for it like here. As one of their (my) great theologians once said, that if you want to know which is the true doctrine of election, go find out from Paul which is the most repugnant to human wisdom, and you've found it. I love that stupidity; even deem it my faith. How wonderful to be God's fool!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Rtying to explain it to the Arminians is like throwing one's pearls before the swines.

 

[webdog]

Rtying to explain it to the Arminians is like throwing one's pearls before the swines.

How demeaning, but a typical pompous calvinistic remark. Thanks for gracing us with your abundant knowledge.

 

[Jarthur001]

How demeaning, but a typical pompous calvinistic remark. Thanks for gracing us with your abundant knowledge.

humm. well webdog, it was I that posted the OP and as you also know I am a Calvinist. I may be the pig here.

I call them as I see them and understand it. This one verse does not change my views, but if I'm not fair and open with my thoughts, who is the fool? To change the meaning as it is read, would be the same as what I say "freewillers do, and this would make me no better then them. When I read this one verse I can not change it. The verse above it I can deal with. This one verse is makes a very hard statement that goes down a another path then what I know to be true. Again..I'm still a Calvinist, for there are to many other verse that proves this doctrine.

I guess its just not meant for us to know everything.

BTW...in the Class I'm teaching, I told them that this made it hard on the so called ..limited atonement..view. Some of them about dropped their teeth when i said this. I'm well known for my stand on the doctrine of grace. There are only a few of us 5 pointers in the church. I just feel it is better to be up front about it then to twist around. By saying this (twisting), I'm not claiming others do. We all have to teach what we KNOW to be the truth. If you feel fine with it...go for it. I did not in this case.


In Christ..James

 

[webdog]

James, that remark was not intended for you. Read the quoted post.

Keep your open heart and mind, that's a very good thing. Many here on the BB have their minds welded shut.

 

[billwald]

Most Catholics would agree

"His Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God but to go so far as absolute knowledge you make faith "void". "

I suspect that most Catholics would agree that the HS bears witness to their spirits.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

What does ...

His Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the children of God but to go so far as absolute knowledge you make faith "void". That is too far but I don't like people who say we don't know anything either. I know I am not the man I used to be. I know a burden left me when Jesus came into my life. I think I can say I know I will never "go back", but it still comes down to "faith".

It all comes down to faith?? I sure hope not. Sometimes my faith is strong, other times it's not. Sometimes, I wonder where it is. I'm glad my salvation rests on God's grace, not my own faith.

I guess that's the difference, isn't it? One view says that salvation is based on their own faith. The others stress God's grace and that even our faith is a gift from above.

 

[Brother Bob]

Friendof Spurgeon;
Do you ever doubt at any time?

 

[Claudia_T]

Faith?

It all comes down to faith?? I sure hope not. Sometimes my faith is strong, other times it's not. Sometimes, I wonder where it is. I'm glad my salvation rests on God's grace, not my own faith.

I guess that's the difference, isn't it? One view says that salvation is based on their own faith. The others stress God's grace and that even our faith is a gift from above.

The problem is this... God gives us faith as a gift bvut if we dont exercise our faith that means we dont have any and arent accepting the gift.

And if we have not faith how can we lay ahold of the grace of God?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Claudia,
It's noproblem. Here is that Faith in action - refering a previous post of mine, "THAT THE ABUNDANT GRACE MIGHT THROUGH THE THANKSGIVING OF MANY REDOUND TO THE GLORY OF GOD". Sometimes I'm down; sometimes I'm high, doesn't matter. I experienced it on occasion when highjacked, and five pistols against my head. I thought, what sinner I am; but if I must now die, God's grace has saved my soul. I had great peace.

 

[Brother Bob]

It's noproblem. Here is that Faith in action - refering a previous post of mine, "THAT THE ABUNDANT GRACE MIGHT THROUGH THE THANKSGIVING OF MANY REDOUND TO THE GLORY OF GOD". Sometimes I'm down; sometimes I'm high, doesn't matter. I experienced it on occasion when highjacked, and five pistols against my head. I thought, what sinner I am; but if I must now die, God's grace has saved my soul. I had great peace.

Good thing you had that faith.
Why are some so afraid to say that faith had anything to do with their Salvation at all, "it is by Grace through Faith".

Don't you know without Faith you cannot please God and I guarntee you that if you don't have any faith you will never see what Heaven looks or feels like. For some reason God requires "faith", live with it!!!

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

You are right, you can't discount faith (Hebrews 11). However, I would shudder to think that is my salvation is based upon MY faith. Thankfully, our faith is a gift too.

 

[webdog]

You are right, you can't discount faith (Hebrews 11). However, I would shudder to think that is my salvation is based upon MY faith. Thankfully, our faith is a gift too.

Scripture does not say that faith is only given to the "elect", and witheld fromeveryone else. Everyone has the ability to have faith in Christ.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

"through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."

To whom is faith given?