What does believe mean?

[J. Jump]

Well, that's just it. They are contradictions within your own systematic theology. The term "everlasting" poses a problem with your own views on soteriology, therefore you conjur up this vast conspiracy of how the Catholic church, church fathers, reformers, translators, publishers - you name it - have kept us from this special knowledge that us plain ole Christians have been missing all these years. Can anyone say 'gnostic'?

It doesn't have anything to do with Gnosticism. And for people like you that throw that term around it shows that you don't even know what Gnosticism is all about in the first place.

They are not contradictions within my systematic theology, because I'm not interested in theology, I'm only interested in what the Bible has to say. You're above statements are just statements coming from a person that has no desire to look at anything outside of their box, whether right, wrong or indifferent.

And it's not a conspiracy. The Bible clearly tells us that in the last days people are not going to be interested in the Truth. Christ clearly tells us in Revelation three that He is not going to be able to be found in the majority in these days. He is on the outside trying to get into the church instead of being the Head of the church.

The church thinks its wealthy and has all the answers, but it is individuals that will answer the knocking and it is on an individual basis that Christ will come in and dine with those that have eyes to see and ears to hear.

If you don't want to see and don't want to hear that's fine, but you don't have to tear down and say incorrect things about those that do that's all I'm saying.

All you are doing is repeating the same ole argument that either side of an issue uses when they don't want to deal with a subject and that is "you're making things up to fit your theology."

Which is an absolute falsity, especially if you actually "knew" me, which you don't, which is another reason why your statements are silly, because you don't even have the grounds to make such claims.

But I'm sure it won't stop you, because you don't like what is being said and you don't agree with it and you don't even want to find out if it's true or not, so I'm going to assume that you will continue to make up false things about me and others even though you don't have a clue.

 

[J. Jump]

how they bring their own presuppositions to Scripture

I'm real curious as to how letting the Bible say what the Bible says is bringing my own pre-suppositions to Scripture? Pre-suppositions are going to the text to find what you want to find. Going to the text to find out what it says is not a pre-supposition.

Again that is just another tired argument of someone that disagrees that really doesn't want to have an honest discussion about things. The same exact same thing can be said of you. But do you believe you go to Scripture trying to prove what you already believe?

 

[Allan]

Satan believes and trembles

Satan believes in Jesus
Satan believes in God
Satan believes Jesus - Died, buried, and rose on the third day
Satan believes Jesus is coming again
Satan believes the WHOLE bible and can quote it better any

Does this make Satan or his demons (who know the same things) saved?
Of course not, because they will not submit themselves to the authority of that knowledge and obey it.

There is one more aspect to salvation that many people forget to include:
UNLESS you REPENT you will all likewise perish.
This is simply a statement showing we must make a personal decision (no matter when you think it must be made - it STILL must be made) to turn from our OWN way, (all we like sheep...) and follow in obediance Christ who is THE WAY. We MUST rely on HIM and what HE has done and KNOW without doubt it is SUFFIENT even if we never went back to church, read our bibles, and prayed another prayer. I know NO believer would ever do that, I was just showing that these do not help you into heaven as it is all about what He did, not what we can help Him with.

BTW: Satan will not be saved - Not because God wont allow it even it there was some way for him to be saved. Satan can not be saved just like IF a believer could lose his salvation he can NEVER again be saved. The principle is found in Heb. IF one has seen, tasted, been apart of the truth and rejected it, they can never come back to it - for they rejected truth in its full and revealed glory and would have no excuse. The fact it states IF one could, is the determining factor that one can not.

Anyway that my nickle! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Andy T.]

But do you believe you go to Scripture trying to prove what you already believe?

No, but you accuse others who do not hold to your systematic theology of doing this.

Sorry, but I'm not joining your club. I have studied it and have rejected it. I guess that means I will burn in hell according to your system (or at least go to a place where I will wail and gnash my teeth) and will miss the Millennium.

And yes, I would call it a conspiracy if the truth had been covered up for almost 2000 years.

 

[J. Jump]

No, but you accuse others who do not hold to your systematic theology of doing this.

Let me correct another mis-statement of yours. I have never said this. That is what you are accusing me of doing.

Sorry, but I'm not joining your club.

Well it's not a club, and it's not mine and I don't control things anyway.

I have studied it and have rejected it.

I HIGHLY doubt that is an accurate statement.

I guess that means I will burn in hell according to your system (or at least go to a place where I will wail and gnash my teeth) and will miss the Millennium.

No you won't miss it, but it's not going to be a fun 1,000-year period, but you don't seem to care about that, so it is what it is.

And yes, I would call it a conspiracy if the truth had been covered up for almost 2000 years.

Nobody said it was a coverup. See that is you jumping to conclusions. I don't know if the translators purposefully mistranslated it to mislead people. To be perfectly honest I highly doubt that.

However I think there are a number of translators these days that go along with what the KJV people said, becuase if they were to venture to far out of the norm they wouldn't sell enough Bibles.

I mean it's rediculous when you think about it that a human "company" thinks they can copyright the Scriptures and charge unreal amounts of money for people to buy copies. And then not only do you have to buy "their" Bibles, but you also have to "buy" the electronic versions to use with any kind of programs that people have put out these days.

Let's not fool ourselves in that "religion" is a pretty good "business" to be in Terribly sad, but true.

 

[J. Jump]

Of course not, because they will not submit themselves to the authority of that knowledge and obey it.

Again...no one is saying that just because a person believes in God, believes in Jesus or the Holy Spirit or One God or whatever they are saved. A person must believe in what was done on their behalf by Jesus, because they are in need of the substitutionary death and shed blood because of sin.

This is the plain teaching of Scripture when it comes to eternal salvation. Anything outside of this places contradictions onto Scripture that can not be there.

The only way you can obey it is by believing it. That is the obedience, and only obedience that is possible.

UNLESS you REPENT you will all likewise perish.

That statement in not in a context of eternal salvation.

This is simply a statement showing we must make a personal decision (no matter when you think it must be made - it STILL must be made) to turn from our OWN way, (all we like sheep...) and follow in obediance Christ who is THE WAY.

This is a statement of works-based salvation and is directly opposed by Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Satan will not be saved - Not because God wont allow it even it there was some way for him to be saved. Satan can not be saved just like IF a believer could lose his salvation he can NEVER again be saved. The principle is found in Heb. IF one has seen, tasted, been apart of the truth and rejected it, they can never come back to it - for they rejected truth in its full and revealed glory and would have no excuse. The fact it states IF one could, is the determining factor that one can not.

The context of Hebews is not eternal salvation. The context of Hebrews is so great salvation, which has to do with the salvation of the soul (Hebrews 10:39).

 

[Lacy Evans]

Satan believes and trembles

Satan believes in Jesus
Satan believes in God
Satan believes Jesus - Died, buried, and rose on the third day
Satan believes Jesus is coming again
Satan believes the WHOLE bible and can quote it better any

This proves nothing for several reasons.

1) Christ did not die for anyone but men. The Gospel is not for fallen angels. They had their chance. Christ took my place. He did not take Satan's

2) If a man believes these things he'll still be lost because this is not the Gospel. Nothing about the atonement, the blood, or substitution.

3) The context of James 2:19 is not eternal salvation by any stretch of the imagination. The saved are the intended audience. 2:1 tells saved folks not to have respect of persons. (Certainly not a salvation issue) the whole chapter following is to the same audience. MY Brethren, don't act like an unbeliever and expect your salvation to keep you in fellowship with God, or out of trouble.

Lacy

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Allan is right on, otherwise why would James have used it in this context?


Jam 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?


James 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!
James 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?


Lacy is correct in that James is talking to people that think they are believers. However their actions are leading James to ask them to evaluate their actions to determine for themselves if their works are those of people of faith.

If you are saved then your "works" will give testimony to that fact.

 

[J. Jump]

Lacy is correct in that James is talking to people that think they are believers.

He calls them brothers. He doesn't call them fake brothers. The Bible is addressed to believers, not to unbelievers.

It amazes me in so much of the "theology" of today that people think the vast majority of the Bible is written to unsaved folks about how to get saved. That's just odd, because the gospel of God's grace is so simple even a child can understand and yet Christendom today for the most part thinks there are 27 books of the NT written to explain a message that can be explained in one simple sentence.

These aren't fake brothers. These are brothers who are already saved and James is focusing on something other than their eternal salvation, becuase works have NOTHING to do with eternal salvation or Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 are lies, making the Bible a book that can not be believed, because if it contradicts Itself in one place who's to say it doesn't in another.

James is dealing with the salvation of the soul which is faith mixed with works. That's what he says can faith save you. It's not a faith that saves you from eternal damnation, but a faith that saves one from losing their soul. Again if we will get out of the way and let the Bible say what the Bible says there is only one correct interpretation that doesn't place contradiction on Scripture and it is our task to die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us in all Truth.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy is correct in that James is talking to people that think they are believers.

Lacy was absolutely wrong if he said that!

Lacy

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

He calls them brothers. He doesn't call them fake brothers. The Bible is addressed to believers, not to unbelievers.

I did not call them fake brothers. I said that they needed to examine their actions to determine if their works were those of true believers. Whether they were truly saved was something they would have to judge for themselves.

These aren't fake brothers. These are brothers who are already saved and James is focusing on something other than their eternal salvation, becuase works have NOTHING to do with eternal salvation or Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 are lies, making the Bible a book that can not be believed, because if it contradicts Itself in one place who's to say it doesn't in another.

What is James telling these people then? Your exposition will be appreciated.

Are you saying a Christian does not necessarily act like a Christian?

Then according to James was the demons saved?

Scripture does NOT contradict itself, but sometimes people see it the way they want too, to justify their own sinfulness.

James is dealing with the salvation of the soul which is faith mixed with works. That's what he says can faith save you. It's not a faith that saves you from eternal damnation, but a faith that saves one from losing their soul.

Explain the difference between "eternal damnation" and "losing your soul". Sounds an awful lot like the same thing to me.

Again if we will get out of the way and let the Bible say what the Bible says there is only one correct interpretation that doesn't place contradiction on Scripture and it is our task to die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us in all Truth.

Finally something we agree on.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Oops, sorry, Lacy was wrong.:saint:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Oops, sorry, Lacy was wrong.:saint:

at least lacy knows what lacy said!:tongue3:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Explain the difference between "eternal damnation" and "losing your soul". Sounds an awful lot like the same thing to me.

Look here:

http://www.gracebiblechurch.us/authors/judgmentseat/judgmentseat.htm

http://www.eaglevision.com.my/w17salvation.htm

http://www.seekersofchrist.org/download/letterJSeat.pdf#search=%22%22Salvation%20of%20the%20soul%22%20nee%22

LAcy

 

[J. Jump]

Lacy is correct in that James is talking to people that think they are believers.

To me your statement sounds as if you are saying that James is speaking to a group of people that think they are believers, but he knows they are not. So that's where the fake believers came in.

I said that they needed to examine their actions to determine if their works were those of true believers.

But you can't examine your works to see if you are saved, because works don't tell you if you are saved or not. Works only tell you if you are living a holy life or not. The only thing that tells you if you are saved is if you believe in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God Who died on your behalf a sinner.

If you believe that you are saved regardless of what works come out of you.

What is James telling these people then? Your exposition will be appreciated.

Are you saying a Christian does not necessarily act like a Christian?

Then according to James was the demons saved?

I'm saying it is "possible" for a Christian to not act like a Christian. The Bible actually tells us that broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there be that find it and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. That was directed to believers and is a warning to believers.

No the demons were not saved. The demons believed there was one God. Believing there is one God doesn't save you. The death and shed blood of Jesus Christ on your behalf saves you if you believe.

Explain the difference between "eternal damnation" and "losing your soul". Sounds an awful lot like the same thing to me.

Great question. Eternal damnation means you are going to be separated from God for eternity. The lose of the soul has to do with reward and loss at the judgment seat of Christ, which is only for believers.

The Bible tells us what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose or forfeit his soul. That again is directed to and is a warning to believers.

The salvation of the soul has to do with ruling and reigning with Christ in the coming kingdom age.

The Bible says we can lose our life now and find it in the coming age or we can save our life now and lose it in the coming age. The Greek word for life is soul. So we can lose our soul now and find it in the coming age or we can save our soul now and lose it in the coming age.

The coming age is the coming kingdom, which will last 1,000 years.

Losing our soul now means we are dying to self and our ambitions and our agenda and allowing the Holy Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ in us. If we do this then we are preparing our wedding garment according to Revelation and we will not stand before Christ naked, but with garments to clothe ourselves.

If we save our soul now that means we continue to act as our own master and do what we want to do instead of what the Lord wants us to do.

Surrendering to the Lordship of Christ doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation, but rather rewards and loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

Hope that helps. If you would like a deeper study through Scripture PM and I can send you some resource material that shows how this is woven throughout the Old and New Testaments.

It's absolutely amazing and the Bible has never been more clear and understandable.

Scripture does NOT contradict itself, but sometimes people see it the way they want too, to justify their own sinfulness.

Aboslutely agree!

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

No thanks, unless you change your mind about the Lordship issue, we will not agree on much.

 

[J. Jump]

Ferron Scripture does not support Lordship as a matter of eternal salvation. If Lordship salvation is true then Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 are lies.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Surrendering to the Lordship of Christ doesn't have anything to do with eternal salvation, but rather rewards and loss at the judgment seat of Christ.

No thanks on the Bible study material, unless you change your mind about the Lordship issue, we will not agree on much.

 

[J. Jump]

No thanks on the Bible study material, unless you change your mind about the Lordship issue, we will not agree on much.

Yeah I got that, but you didn't address my point, and that point is that if Lordship salvation is really true then Acts 16:30-31 and Ephesians 2:8-9 are both lies, because they don't jive with Lordship salvation.

So how do you get past that contradiction?

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Sorry about the double post.


Works are a result of salvation not the cause of salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Here we are back to the meaning of "believe" again. How deep within you do you believe in Christ? Will this belief produce a change in you? How will believing affect your relationship with Christ?