What does believe mean?

[Hope of Glory]

So, Ferron, do you believe that someone can lose their spiritual salvation?

 

[EdSutton]

Lacy is correct in that James is talking to people that think they are believers.

Lacy never said anything like that on this thread!!

I'm not particularly into defending anyone as "He is of age! Ask him!", and I cannot speak to any other thread, at the moment, but I can this one, having read it through from end to end, twice, just to make sure.

I'LL agree with FERRON on one thing from a later post, however, and that is that someone was wrong. It just so happens it's FERRON!

Ed

 

[Allan]

Act 16:30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

J.Jump
I realize you address Ferron on this but I will toss my nickle:
I simply Highlighted a word I would like you to deal with Please.
Since it is the Greek word kuros (supremacy) it is a term also synonmous with God.

Thus you can not believe Jesus is your saviour (Christ) unless you understand that you must turn from your way and turn to His way (salvation and life) therefore making Him Lord - the One whos salvation is given to His followers.

Can one be saved and not acknowledge God as Lord and Jesus the same?

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Ed, there were no quotation marks. I put the word "think" in to make a point. I did not mean to misconstrue what anyone said.

Hope of Glory,
No, I believe that the Holy Spirit will keep us, just as I believe that he changes our heart at the time of salvation.

I blieve that the presence of the Holy Spirit changes our desire toward that of Christ, thus Lordship.

I believe that we maintain our sinful nature, thus 2 natures. One that desires things of the flesh and one that desires the things of God. I believe this is the struggle Paul is talking about in Romans ch. 7

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?


I do not believe that anyone can be totally free from sin no matter how mature of a Christian they are. Being free of sin is not a measure of Lordship, no one escapes sin until death.

Lordship is submission to Christ. Sin will still battle for control, but the Holy Spirit is able to keep us.

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

If you possess the Holy Spirit then Jesus is Lord.

 

[skypair]

Just want to "dress up" a few things Lacy said...

This proves nothing for several reasons.

1) Christ did not die for anyone but men. The Gospel is not for fallen angels. They had their chance. Christ took my place. He did not take Satan's

And even if Christ died for all of Satan's sins, He could not die for Satan's "unpardonable sin" of rejecting God.

2) If a man believes these things he'll still be lost because this is not the Gospel. Nothing about the atonement, the blood, or substitution.

True -- man must enter into the new covenant relationship with God in order to be saved. This is usually where Calvies get it wrong. They aver all the proper beliefs (Apostle's Creed, 1Cor 15:3-4) but often DON'T "sign the contract" through repentance from self toward Christ. They don't, that is, transact "belief" into "faith."

3) ... MY Brethren, don't act like an unbeliever and expect your salvation to keep you in fellowship with God, or out of trouble.

Don't, that is, be a Pharisee -- relationship BEFORE works.

BTW, it seems James brethren are Jews -- and that this may be addressed more to the trib saints than the church. But that's just one person's view.

skypair

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

The attack on the Lordship of Christ has evolved from the desire of so-called evangelical preachers to add trophies to their cases. "Just say the magic words and everything will be alright, don't worry about turning away from your sins, you can take care of that later."

If Jesus aint Lord who is? Could it be Satan!

According to Webster-

Repentance
REPENT'ANCE, n.

1. Sorrow for any thing done or said; the pain or grief which a person experiences in consequence of the injury or inconvenience produced by his own conduct.

2. In theology, the pain, regret or affliction which a person feels on account of his past conduct, because it exposes him to punishment. This sorrow proceeding merely from the fear of punishment, is called legal repentance, as being excited by the terrors of legal penalties, and it may exist without an amendment of life.

3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance, and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.

Repentance is a change of mind, or a conversion from sin to God.

Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation. 2 Cor 7. Mat 3.

Repentance is the relinquishment of any practice, from conviction that it has offended God.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The attack on the Lordship of Christ has evolved from the desire of so-called evangelical preachers to add trophies to their cases. "Just say the magic words and everything will be alright, don't worry about turning away from your sins, you can take care of that later."

I don't know about the others but I believe a Christian can miss the Kingdom and be chastened in hell for 1000 years if he is not obedient, if he is not holy and if he doesn't turn from his sin.

So don't tell me that I say "everything is alright".

My repercussions are more eminent than yours.

Most folks who teach that you must have good works to prove you are saved usually think that they have enough fruit for their own assurance.

Now you might think that causing a disobedient christian to doubt his eternal salvation is a way to motivate him to repentance but it will do just the opposite. it will motivate him to despair. There is no holiness, no repentance (other than from trusting in your own works), and no turning from sin for an unbeliever. He doesn't have the power of the Holy Spirit to aide him nor the Blood of Christ to sanctify his filthy rag works.

The Spirit will lead him to the cross and no farther until he deals with Christ's finished work. Then the Spirit will lead him to repentance, good works and holiness. But the man still gets to choose! Repentance, good works, and holiness are not inevitable results of salvation. A Christian can sin (grossly) and die in his sin! The Judgment Seat of Christ will be where HE answers for those sins.

You can't KNOW that your works are accepted unless you KNOW you are saved. Unsanctified works, nomater how "good," are filthy rags.

He might turn from his sin and appear really holy (Ghandi, Mother Teresa, etc.) but if he never believed in Christ's atonment and substituted blood he is unsaved.

But you can't get the cart and the horse mixed up. the horse is a horse (of course of course) and the cart is a cart. Faith and works must remain separate, or nobody gets saved.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

No thanks on the Bible study material. . .

Pr 18:13 -
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.


I know your position. I've taught it from a pulpit and to a Sunday School class. I studied it in Bible School and believed it.

You have no idea what I am talking about. You have not been exposed to the historical Baptist/Brethren position called Millenial Exclusion, Responsibility Truth, The Gospel of The Kingdom, etc.

Whether or not you "hear" this "matter" is quite up to you, but it seems to me that a Berean Spirit might be good "evidence of salvation" (to someone who believes in such a thing.)

Lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

I have nothing further to add to what Lacy has said, but I would like to reiterat that the Judgment seat is where saved people (and only saved people) will answer for their works in the flesh, and they will be paid accordingly whether it be reward, loss, or even chastisement for the coming Kingdom.

Our works have absolutely nothing to do with earning our salvation, keeping our salvation, or proving our salvation.

Works are works are works are works, no matter when they occur, and are not a prerequisite for being spiritually saved.

 

[Allan]

Hope of Glory
I have nothing further to add to what Lacy has said, but I would like to reiterat that the Judgment seat is where saved people (and only saved people) will answer for their works in the flesh, and they will be paid accordingly whether it be reward, loss, or even chastisement for the coming Kingdom.

Just one question for you. Are you saying that you agree with Lacy stating:

I believe a Christian can miss the Kingdom and be chastened in hell for 1000 years if he is not obedient, if he is not holy and if he doesn't turn from his sin.

???

 

[thjplgvp]

Lacy,

Please explain the following statement; I am slow so take that in consideration and type real slow so I can understand. :laugh:

"I don't know about the others but I believe a Christian can miss the Kingdom and be chastened in hell for 1000 years if he is not obedient, if he is not holy and if he doesn't turn from his sin."

Please explain how a Christian can miss the kingdom (define kingdom please)?

How a Christian can be chastened for a thousand years in hell?

How a Christian cannot be obedient to the call of salvation?

How he can be a Christian if he has not turned from sin?

By judgment seat are you referring to the Bema or the Great White throne? The Bema is for rewards not the Christian's judgment of sin. The Great white throne is for the unsaved so what judgment are you speaking of.

Thjplgvp
:type:

 

[Lacy Evans]

Just one question for you. Are you saying that you agree with Lacy stating:


???

Not all Kingdom Believers/Millennial Exclusionists believe this. (I do. It is not the topic of this thread. I would be happy to defend it on another thread.) I merely stated my position to show that I don't believe anything like "Say a prayer and then don't worry about your sin".

Lacy

 

[av1611jim]

Lacy,

Please explain the following statement; I am slow so take that in consideration and type real slow so I can understand. :laugh:

"I don't know about the others but I believe a Christian can miss the Kingdom and be chastened in hell for 1000 years if he is not obedient, if he is not holy and if he doesn't turn from his sin."

Please explain how a Christian can miss the kingdom (define kingdom please)?

How a Christian can be chastened for a thousand years in hell?

How a Christian cannot be obedient to the call of salvation?

How he can be a Christian if he has not turned from sin?

By judgment seat are you referring to the Bema or the Great White throne? The Bema is for rewards not the Christian's judgment of sin. The Great white throne is for the unsaved so what judgment are you speaking of.

Thjplgvp
:type:

If I may answer your last question; I will let Lacy answer the others.

Ro 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Ro 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Ro 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

And:

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

And:

1Co 9:24
¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

You wil notice that everyone of these passages are written by Paul to churches. The conclusion should be obvious. Christians will be judged for their works whether they be good works, i.e. holiness; or bad works, i.e. sin.

Even Paul, that great man of yesteryear, was concerned that he would not be judged worthy to obtain a crown, yea even be castaway.

But you will also notice that these passages were very early in his career. Now notice this:

2Ti 4:6
For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This is just before he was executed in Rome. You will notice his confidence that he had earned his crown. This is so because until the end of his life he had no confidence that he would endure unto the end and be found faithful. "Lest... I myself should be a castaway", he said. But now, at the last, he could look back and say triumphantly, "I HAVE KEPT THE FAITH!"

My friend, you have been sold a hill of beans about the Judgment Seat of Christ. What I just told you and showed you from Scripture is the truth.
Christians will be judged for either holiness of life or sinfulness of life AFTER they have been saved eternally. Can you doubt Paul's salvation when he was writing the book of Romans or Corinthians? Of course not. Even so it is with US!!!

I remain:
In His service;
Jim

 

[Lacy Evans]

If I may answer your last question; I will let Lacy answer the others.

I started a new thread (Millennial exclusion) Jim so you are welcome to assist there.

Lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

Just one question for you. Are you saying that you agree with Lacy stating:


???

Absolutely. It's stated quite succinctly in Matthew 25, particularly when looked at in light of the types that we are given in the OT.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Lacy, where do you find this 1000 yr thing in Scripture?

As for the Lordship issue, I have never heard of the authors you mentioned but thought you might be interested in what C.H. Spurgeon had to say.

"Church hypocrites..." by Spurgeon --

No man who is not united in his heart vitally and entirely to
Christ, can ever be of the slightest service to the church of God.

Oh, if there be a place where sinners are more loathsome
to God than anywhere else, it is in his church.

A dog in its kennel is well enough-
but a dog in the throne-room is quite out of place.

A sinner in the world is bad enough-
but in the church he is hideous!

A madman in an asylum is a creature to be pitied,
but a madman who protests he is not mad, and will
thrust himself among us that he may obtain means
of doing mischief, is not merely to be pitied,
he is to be avoided, and needs to be restrained.

God hates sin anywhere, but when sin puts its fingers
upon his divine altar; when it comes and lays its insolent
hand upon the sacrifice that is burning there, then God
spurns it from him with disgust.

Of all men, who stand in the most likely place to receive the
mightiest thunderbolt, and the most terrible lightning's flash,
those are the men who have a divided heart, and profess to
serve God, while with their souls they are serving sin.

Take heed, sinner, take heed, running on in your sin you will
meet with punishment. But after all, O hypocrite, look well
to your ways, for your sin and your lie together shall bring
down a dread and swift destruction upon your devoted head.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Sheep or swine?
-Spurgeon, "SEPARATING THE PRECIOUS THE VILE"

There is an essential difference between the
righteous and the wicked, even in their sins--

If you see a SHEEP fall into the mire, it is quick enough up again.
"A righteous man falls seven times, but he rises up again."

But if the SWINE falls there, it wallows in it again and again,
and nothing but the whip or the stick can make it rise.

As for the wicked, he rolls and revels in
his sin, abiding and continuing in it.


Swine or sheep?
-Spurgeon, "A passion for Holiness in a Believer's Life"

"Sin shall not have dominion over you." Rom. 6:14

Sin shall not have dominion over the believer,
for though he falls, he shall rise again.

The child of God, when he falls into the mire, is like
the sheep that gets up and escapes from the ditch as
quickly as possible- it is not in his nature to lie there.

The ungodly man is like the hog that rolls in
the filth and wallows in it with delight.

The mire has dominion over the swine,
but it has none over the sheep.

Every child of God weeps, mourns, and bemoans his sin, and
he hates it when, for a while, he has been overtaken by it.

Sin has an awful power, but it has no 'dominion' over
a true believer. It may cast him down, but it cannot
make us delight in it's evil.

God has so changed your nature by His grace that
when you sin, you shall be like a fish on dry land--
you shall be out of your element.

In worldly company, you shall feel like a man
who sits upon thorns or walks amid snakes.
In worldly amusements, you shall feel as if
the house shall fall upon you.
You shall never be made happy by evil, but shall
groan under it, if you ever yield to it's power.

You shall hate yourself to think you ever consented to
its solicitations. You shall be wretched and unhappy
and shall find no rest until you return unto your Lord.

You may fall into sin by surprise, but if you calmly
and deliberately go to that which is unclean, how does
the love of God dwell in you?

It is both the way TO peace, and the way OF peace
to submit one's whole self to God.
Nor is it a difficult task to a true believer,
but it is the desire of his heart,
the pleasure of his life.

Complete consecration of every faculty of mind
and body to the Lord is our soul's deepest wish!

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

From Spurgeon's sermon, "THE SPIES"

There are men that make grand professions,
but their lives are as much opposed to their
professions, as hell is opposed to heaven.

As Christ is holy, even so do his people desire to be holy.

And the grace of God which brings salvation is pure and
peaceful; it produces in men things that are holy and things
that magnify God, and that make human nature appear glorious.


From Spurgeon's sermon, "HYPOCRISY"

A hypocrite may be known by the fact that his speech
and his actions are contrary to one another.

As Jesus says, "they do not practice what they preach."

The hypocrite can speak like an angel,
he can quote texts with the greatest rapidity;
he can talk concerning all matters of religion,
whether they be theological doctrines, metaphysical
questions, or experimental difficulties.

In his own esteem he knows much and when he rises to speak,
you will often feel abashed at your own ignorance in the
presence of his superior knowledge.

But see him when he comes to ACTIONS.
What do you behold there?

The fullest contradiction of everything that he has uttered.
He tells to others that they must obey the law-
does he obey it? Ah! no.

He declares that others must experience this, that,
and the other, and he sets up a fine scale of experience,
far above even that of the Christian himself;
but does he touch it?
No, not with so much as one of his fingers.

He will tell others what they should do;
but will he remember his own teaching?
Not he!

Follow him to his house; trace him to the market,
see him in the shop, and if you want to refute his
preaching you may easily do it from his own life.

My hearer! is this your case?

You are a member of a church, a deacon, a minister.
Is this your case?

Is your life a contradiction to your words?

Do your hands witness against your lips?

How does it stand with you?

'Talk' is easy, but 'walk' is hard.

'Speech' any man may attain unto, but 'act' is difficult.

We must have grace within to make our life holy;
but 'lip-piety' needs no grace.

Some people I know of are like inns, which have an angel hanging
outside for a sign, but they have a devil within for a landlord.

There are many men of that kind; they take good care to
have an excellent sign hanging out, they must be known by
all men to be strictly religious; but within, which is the
all-important matter, they are full of wickedness.

There are many books which are excellently bound,
but there is nothing within them; and there are many
persons that have a very good spiritual exterior,
but there is nothing whatever in the heart.

Do you not know some of them?

Perhaps if you know yourself you may discover one.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

This one is by Edward Griffin, Im sure you will like it too.

"An Exhortation to Serve the Lord"

'If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother,
wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes,
and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.'

None are true disciples but those who love Christ supremely.

They esteem God above every other object.

They consider his glory as their highest interest,
and communion with him as their supreme happiness.

It is their greatest grief that their treacherous hearts
are so prone to wander from God.

Their most fervent desires pant after him.
And when in a favored hour they find 'him whom their
soul loves,' they hold him fast and will not let him go.

There is no true love to God which is not habitually supreme.

Supreme love to God will certainly produce self denial for his sake.
It will habitually avoid every thing which he has forbidden,
and obey, not a part, but all his commands.

Supreme love will seek communion with its object
more than any worldly pleasure.
It will pant after him and after greater conformity to him;
it will seek his glory as the highest interest;
it will count him the most desirable portion;
it will delight in thinking of him more than in any worldly thoughts;
it will delight in prayer,
it will renounce the world and idols and cultivate a heavenly mind.

Unless we have that which will produce all these effects,
we have no supreme love to God;
and if we have no supreme love, we have no love at all;
and if we have no love, as there is no neutral state,
we are his enemies. 'He who is not with me is against me..."

Hence it is that so many people who attend public worship
and lead regular lives, are unmindful of God from day to day,
neglect prayer, put eternal things out of view,
and lose themselves in the eager pursuit of the world.

They must be conscious, if they will but reflect,
that 'the world' engages more of their care than God or their souls,
and is of course their supreme deity.

They would rather be employed in reading an amusing story
than in searching the Scriptures.

Surely such people do not love God.

Such minds could not be happy in heaven if admitted there.
They must undergo a radical change or certainly
they can find no happiness beyond the grave.

Ah Lord God, how many such are to be found among us,
among the dearest friends of our hearts.

It is distressing to look through our congregations and see
how men neglect God; how they live without him in the world,
live as though there were no God.

Is there no remedy for our lost 'professing' brethren?
Will nothing awaken them to their duty and danger?

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

From Spurgeon's sermon, "FIGS AND OLIVE BERRIES"

It would be a monstrosity, a thing to be wondered at and stared at
as unnatural and absurd if a fig tree started bearing olive berries;
and it is just as unnatural for a Christian to live in sin.

Can he so live as to bear the fruits of iniquity
instead of the fruits of righteousness?
God forbid that it should be so!

If the fig tree should ever bring forth olive berries,
we might have good reason to question whether it was a fig tree,
for a tree is known by its fruits.

So, when one who professes to be a Christian lives as worldlings
live, there is grave reason to fear that he is a worldling
notwithstanding his profession.

If we are to know him by his fruits, which is our Lord's infallible
test, how can we imagine that he is a partaker of the divine life
when he acts as he does?

Inconsistency of life casts a very serious doubt upon many
who call themselves the children of God.

No wonder they are themselves often the subjects of doubts and fears,
as they ought to be; for, if they judge themselves by their fruits,
they may well question whether they have ever been born again.

Those who are new creatures in Christ Jesus seek to live
as he lived, so far as it is possible for them to do so.

An inconsistent 'professor',
a double-dealing 'professor',
a worldly 'professor', (what an anomaly!)
a 'professor' that holds with the hare and runs with the hounds,
a 'professor' that makes a great profession
but has little or nothing worth having in possession-
such a man is the scorn of the world,
a mere blown-up football for men and devils to kick wherever they will.

An unholy man or woman, who 'pretends' to be a Christian,
is a stench in the nostrils of the thrice-holy God,
and a by-word and reproach among those
who make no pretence of being the Lord's people.