What does "chosen" mean?

[12strings]

These things happen after the church age. There will also be animal sacrifices again as well. We all have to consider the times places and who is being referred to. The church isn't on the Earth duriong the tribulation because the Holy Spirit isn't holding back evil anylonger.
If the Holy Spirit is not here, neither are the sheep. Because, we have been promised He will never leave us.

-Well, since we can't get into Millenial views here, I'll boil it down to 2 questions:

1. Are you saying that the verses I referenced about God making a "kingdom of priests" from "EVERY tribe and nation" are refering only to a select few in the time to come in which they will again offer animal sacrifices? If so, then you are saying ALL of the uses of Rev. 5 in reference to Missions, and reaching the nations are incorrect, as it only refers to a select few who will actually serve as animal-sacrificing priests?

2. Are you saying the entire doctrine of the priesthood of believers is null and void?

If it doesn't make sense then wouldn't you say we should not jump to conclusions here and assume we can be in Christ when we did not exist before the foundation of the world. Nothing can be chosen that does not exist and no one can prove that it can. We were only chosen in the sense that we come to believe in Christ in order to be found in Him that we be chosen. To claim you are chosen particularity before the foundation of the world would have to mean God saved you before you existed. We cannot be elect or be chosen with out Christ. You cannot be lost and saved at the same time.

-I am not saying we were in christ before the foundation of the world, I am saying were were "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world" (there's a verse that says that I think).

-God certainly CAN choose something before it exists...He's God.

-Again, I am not saying I was saved before I existed, merely that I was chosen. Your whole line of reasoning is misrepresenting our views and adding something to it that is not there.

Yes God could have looked down through time and chosen you because He knew you would come to believe. Yet if God did do this there would have been no need of your election because God knows all and He would have been assured of your comming to Him regardless.
It isn't in scripture therefore it isn't of God. My point is, it is exactly anti-logical. To believe in this is to believe in a guess of men. It means God chose you because of something you did in the future which is works for Salvation. Not to mention it would mean that God respects men. A direct contradiction of scripture.
MB

So you don't believe God chose us before the foundation of the world...and you don't believe God even looked down and saw who would believe, you rather believe...WHAT? (BTW, I don't believe in the "looked down through time and saw our faith" view either).

It sounds as though you believe God did not choose us at all, but ONLY chose Christ, and chose to in the future accept all who believe in Christ, though he did not know who they were, but upon their belief, then declares them chosen. (If this is accurate then how is that any LESS God choosing us because of something you did?) (If it is not accurate, please correct it).

 

[Iconoclast]

There cannot be agreement here because the things you speak of upon examination are contrary to grace and man centered

.....which team I'd be on, and how popular I was among my peers by how quickly I was picked, as well as how good I was at that particular game and sport in which teams were being chosen for. :laugh:

Some may ask, just what does this have to do with anything to do with the question, and I'll say, very little if we believe that Christ came to save any who (1) realize they have sinned,

Christ came to save sinners....he was not looking around like a child looking for easter eggs....He was not looking for "enlightened sinners" who in and of themselves realize they may have sinned;
23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.


(2) Realize that Christ died for their sin,

No such sinners understood the cross in and of themselves.

(3) Realize that works cannot get you saved or into heaven,


all natural men are trying to earn heaven by who they are and what they do

(4) Realize that you need to accept the "gift" of salvation that God has given us

no where is anyone looking for sinners who accept anything....much less a potential salvation.




through His only-begotten Son, and "ask him to be our Savior"

He is the Saviour of all men who believe.....we do not ask Him to be anything...He is the SAVIOUR of all men, especially those who believe.


and come into our heart and life

No....believers are given a new heart...He does not come in to our heart, and we do not give him our heart.....what would He want with a wicked sinful heart....


, and live for Him and walk that narrow, rugged, and at times, difficult path to heaven's narrow door. raying:

If it serves to make the "chosen" crowd happy, then after I chose Him as Savior,

This shows rebellion against God's revealed truth...do not worry about the "chosen crowd"as you say......you have said man is king and lord..then you allow God to choose you back..isn't that nice.....you allow God to do something.....

He chose me, back. AMEN! raying:

If you can read this, maybe, just maybe, you are making the act of following Jesus a tad bit too difficult to obtain!
The bible says it is impossible...not difficult....God makes it happen by supernatural activity...new birth.
You are speaking of a human act...scripture speaks of God's activity

I don't believe God meant for it to be so hard to come back to fellowship with Him.

Since Adams fall there is no-fellowship- to come back to.


At least, I don't believe coming to Jesus should be like some of denominational, secret formula type thing....

It is a scriptural revealed covenant thing...some denominations see it. It is revealed truth, revealed unto the sheep.

 

[12strings]

12Strings
This passage proves that our election depends entirley on our being sanctified first, because it is through sanctification that we are elect.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
MB

1. I'm not sure why you focused on the "through sanctification" part instead of the other parts of the verse. Couldn't someone (classical arminian) say just as easily "this verse proves we are elected due to God foreknowing us"?

2. Wouldn't it be better to say, based on just this verse that election depends partly on foreknowledge and partly on sanctification?

2. What exactly do you mean that it depend entirely on our sanctification? Does God choose us after we choose him and are sanctified?

 

[JesusFan]

At the risk of seeing some repetitive arguments, I'd like to hear a non-cal explanation of what the verses mean that we have been "chosen" and "predestined" by God. I have included a few verses for reference.

Eph. 1: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will.

Romans 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

1 Peter 2:4 - As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious,

1 Peter 2:9 - But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.


I have read some say that God chooses those who believe, but I don't see how that is any choice for God. (I recognize the opposite problem exists in calvinism: If God chooses, how is there any choice for man?)

If God has predestined us for adoption, what does that mean if not God predestined some for adoption?

Again, not trying to be contentious, but I still don't understand the non-cal explaination of verses like this.

Think for me the 2 big questions arms/non cals have to answer in this concept of biblical Election are:

On what basis is God doing election? Due to His Will, our faith, or what?

Can man "freely" come to Christ in order to be elcted, if basis is your own faith?

 

[MB]

1. I'm not sure why you focused on the "through sanctification" part instead of the other parts of the verse. Couldn't someone (classical arminian) say just as easily "this verse proves we are elected due to God foreknowing us"?

I focused on it because being sanctified is being a saint. Being a saint is being saved and it is through sanctification that we are elect in the first place which shows clearly we are in Him when we are chosen. As in Eph 1:4.

2. Wouldn't it be better to say, based on just this verse that election depends partly on foreknowledge and partly on sanctification?

That depends on what point in time was this foreknowledge and in what circumstances. Calvinism would say it was before the foundation of the world but it doesn't say that at all.
This foreknowledge is just as likely to be the moment just before belief when the Spirit was working to convince us and to convict us of our sins.

2. What exactly do you mean that it depend entirely on our sanctification? Does God choose us after we choose him and are sanctified?

It stands to reason that if "A" comes through "B", then the "B" it came through, had to exist first. The "B" repersenting sanctification. The "A" repersenting election.

In other words, our election cannot happen until we are at least sanctified or,saved. Because election cannot come unless we are sanctified inorder for it to come through sanctification.

We are all chosen first when Christ died for our sins. He chose us to die for all of the men in the world. We are chosen to be His bride. Yet not all will accept the invitation.
By the way this is the invitation;
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

I focused on it because being sanctified is being a saint. Being a saint is being saved and it is through sanctification that we are elect in the first place which shows clearly we are in Him when we are chosen. As in Eph 1:4.

That depends on what point in time was this foreknowledge and in what circumstances. Calvinism would say it was before the foundation of the world but it doesn't say that at all.
This foreknowledge is just as likely to be the moment just before belief when the Spirit was working to convince us and to convict us of our sins.


It stands to reason that if "A" comes through "B", then the "B" it came through, had to exist first. The "B" repersenting sanctification. The "A" repersenting election.

In other words, our election cannot happen until we are at least sanctified or,saved. Because election cannot come unless we are sanctified inorder for it to come through sanctification.

We are all chosen first when Christ died for our sins. He chose us to die for all of the men in the world. We are chosen to be His bride. Yet not all will accept the invitation.
By the way this is the invitation;
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
MB

Are you stating that Jesus died for the sins of all, placed all within His corporate Body, and we are the ones who then decide wether to stay saved or not?

That we undo our election in Him?

this seems to be laying the seeds for Universalism....

 

[MB]

Are you stating that Jesus died for the sins of all,

Yes I am

placed all within His corporate Body, and we are the ones who then decide wether to stay saved or not?

That we undo our election in Him?

this seems to be laying the seeds for Universalism....

Are you attempting to slander what I did say by your additional comments?
I never said any of the underlined and you know it. Obviously you need to read it over again and show me where I said those vicious lies.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

Yes I am

Are you attempting to slander what I did say by your additional comments?
I never said any of the underlined and you know it. Obviously you need to read it over again and show me where I said those vicious lies.
MB

Not trying to slander, but to clarify!

You said jesus died for all, that we were all placed into the Body by God, yet some refuse that election...

can you see how it seems to be implying that Giod elected all to be saved because jesus died to atonefor all, reconciling all to the father, andits up to us to reject that election?

 

[righteousdude2]

Well, Now You Have Me Seeing "Red!"

I guess, according to you, I'm really lost in space...thanks for your intellectual enlightenment, but, my theology is just fine without your input, or advice.

I guess we both see His Grace in different shades of RED!(me) RED! (you) :laugh:

BTW - Were you one of the folks that helped to make the "red" letter edition of the KJV so popular??? :sleep: I can actually admire your work :thumbs:

I would say, that we are not in agreement, which is usually the case when it comes to us :smilewinkgrin:

Wow! To claim there is "no-fellowship" seems like apostasy, or borderline heresy at least.!

 

[Amy.G]

BTW - Were you one of the folks that helped to make the "red" letter edition of the KJV so popular??? :sleep: I can actually admire your work :thumbs:

Icon, was that you? I really like my red letter bibles! Thanks! :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

I see chosen as a tree. It all started with a seed Israel chosen before the foundation of the world. It grows into a tree with branches. God cut out branches producing bad fruit or no fruit, cut it out for unbelief. He kept a remnant of branches one who are meek and humble who will trust in the Lord. He included other branches and grafted it in when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Then He grafted back in original branches when they no longer persisted in their unbelief. These branches reach out with the true vine and He produces more fruit.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble. The remnant of Israel will trust in the name of the LORD.

John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

Romans 11:
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[MB]

Not trying to slander, but to clarify!

You said jesus died for all, that we were all placed into the Body by God, yet some refuse that election...

can you see how it seems to be implying that Giod elected all to be saved because jesus died to atonefor all, reconciling all to the father, andits up to us to reject that election?

To Be chosen for Salvation does not mean you will have it. It only means that you may have the opportunity to be saved but, it requires complete surrender.

No one else misunderstood what I wrote. Please the next time you want to quote me use the quote tool and place what I actually wrote on the board for everyone to see. All you have to do is cut and paste it or hit the quote and the bottom of the post.
MB

 

[JesusFan]

To Be chosen for Salvation does not mean you will have it. It only means that you may have the opportunity to be saved but, it requires complete surrender.

We are chosen By GOD, and placed by Him into the Body of Christ, and He is the One that grants us the means to repent/believe in jesus, so where does this }complete surrender" come into play?

Its not an "opportunity" afforded by God to be saved, as it die the Will and Plan of God, not up to us!

No one else misunderstood what I wrote. Please the next time you want to quote me use the quote tool and place what I actually wrote on the board for everyone to see. All you have to do is cut and paste it or hit the quote and the bottom of the post.
MB

Still seems to at least me that you are skirting the line of saying that all can be saved/come to Christ, as it all depends upon us, in that God has done all that he potentially could have done, and now fully up to us!

Are you saying that death of Jesus reconciled all of us back to God the father, potentially ALL can be saved, and yt all depends on what we do in response to that?

 

[MB]

Still seems to at least me that you are skirting the line of saying that all can be saved/come to Christ, as it all depends upon us, in that God has done all that he potentially could have done, and now fully up to us!

Let me be as blunt as I know how.No one is saved with out the working of the Holy Spirit to convince us of Christ and to convict us of sin. The conviction can take us to our knees in submission to the righteousness of God. Romans 10:1-4
Submission is surrender it is giving up the fight.
Man does not come to God with out these three things. Which makes Salvation very conditional.MB

 

[JesusFan]

Let me be as blunt as I know how.No one is saved with out the working of the Holy Spirit to convince us of Christ and to convict us of sin. The conviction can take us to our knees in submission to the righteousness of God. Romans 10:1-4
Submission is surrender it is giving up the fight.
Man does not come to God with out these three things. Which makes Salvation very conditional.MB

what is the distinction between the HS convicting us and HIm regenerating us though?

How can sinful people respond by faith if their very natures "naturally" would reject Christ?

 

[convicted1]

what is the distinction between the HS convicting us and HIm regenerating us though?

Conviction is coming to the realization of one being lost due to their sins. Realizing that w/o God in their life they are going to hell. IOW, conviction is what makes us feel "unclean" before the Lord(and we were as sinners). {All of this is done by the Sprit, btw}

How can sinful people respond by faith if their very natures "naturally" would reject Christ?

Easy, by God working with them. You need to take regeneration and place it alongside salvation. Regeneration is a "new birth" which is a "new life". Salvation is being saved, and placed in Christ, by His shed blood. These two happen simultaenously, and not "R" before "S".

 

[Iconoclast]

.

MB;To Be chosen for Salvation does not mean you will have it.

Sure it does. It does not say you were chosen for a chance to be saved[/B][/QUOTE]

Where are you getting these ideas from?

It only means that you may have the opportunity to be saved but, it requires complete surrender.

So...if followed through you are saying God does not save...he just gives us a chance to be saved.
These are not the words you used, and your other post seeks to round this out......but it cannot be both at the same time.

 

[Benjamin]

........................

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1733731&postcount=1

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1733731&postcount=1

oic.....ty benjamin.....i answered him in colors, but did not quote him .....I see says the blind man.:thumbsup:
I edited the other post.

 

[MB]

what is the distinction between the HS convicting us and HIm regenerating us though?

How can sinful people respond by faith if their very natures "naturally" would reject Christ?

Convicted1 answered this very well. I admit that men do not seek God by them selves. We can all see this clearly just by looking around.

Conviction is becoming aware of all your sins and feeling the guilt of every sin. The guilt for me got worse the harder I tried to dismiss it. It hurt so bad I will never forget what a sinner I was. I had no conscience at all. No respect for anyone else. No real concern for others at all, not even my parents.

It hurt so bad, I just gave up. I submitted to the righteousness of God. I surrendered everything in my self to my Lord and Savior. I begged for the Lord to forgive me and He took all the guilt away.
MB