What does God require of us?

[12strings]

...and can we do what God requires? (Continued from another thread).

Here's what we have so far...I'll give what I said earlier, then a few new responses to Van's points:

Originally Posted by 12strings:
All of scripture shows that no one can meet his standard of acceptance...if they could, Jesus would not have had to die on a cross. If there were people who were capable of loving God with all of their heart, soul, mind, & strength, they would not need to be redeemed. That is not even a Calvinism issue.

This is yet another false statement, devoid of truth. Matthew 23:13 tells us of folks who were entering heaven but we blocked by false teachers and false doctrine. Then we have John 21, where Jesus asks Peter if he loves Him unconditionally. Peter answers that he loves him like a brother. Jesus accepts this "best effort" as meeting His standard and say "Feed My Sheep."

1. What exactly is false in my statement above? Are you saying it completely false & devoid of truth to say that humans cannot meet God's standard of acceptance??? If so, why the cross?

2. Matthew 23:13 does not say how or why those who "Would" enter were entering...and how does this fit with your stated agreement with Eternal security of believers?

3. John 21 (a) does not speak of peter's salvation, (b) does not say Jesus accepts Peter's "best effort", and (c) does not bring any light to this discussion.

You, 12 Strings, deny God accepts us based on His knowledge of our heart.

You are absolutely correct. I believe God accepts us based on the merit of his son's completed work on the cross.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 should tell you that God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth.

As stated before in other threads, the "Through Faith in the truth" clause could refer either to salvation, or to the choosing..." That debate will likely not be solved here.

Our love has no merit on its own, it is God who accepts our best effort as a best effort, no matter how the lack of perfection. It does not depend upon the man that wills but upon God. We do our best to humble ourselves before the Lord and God does the rest.

Here we get to the real issue, I think...in that I believe there is NNE who does even their best. It's not as though people are trying their very best to love and trust God. We cannot even live up to our own standards, much less God's.

Van's language here must be taken in context with his statements elsewhere that salvation is all of God, and that even our love and faith are not meritorious...HOWEVER, using language like "God accepts our best effort" and "God does the rest" is very dangerous.


Also as part of this discussion is whether it is possible for a human to obey the great commandment and love God with ALL their heart...
-I say no...Van says yes.

What say the Baptist-board experts???

 

[Thomas Helwys]

...and can we do what God requires? (Continued from another thread).

Here's what we have so far...I'll give what I said earlier, then a few new responses to Van's points:

Originally Posted by 12strings:
All of scripture shows that no one can meet his standard of acceptance...if they could, Jesus would not have had to die on a cross. If there were people who were capable of loving God with all of their heart, soul, mind, & strength, they would not need to be redeemed. That is not even a Calvinism issue.



1. What exactly is false in my statement above? Are you saying it completely false & devoid of truth to say that humans cannot meet God's standard of acceptance??? If so, why the cross?

2. Matthew 23:13 does not say how or why those who "Would" enter were entering...and how does this fit with your stated agreement with Eternal security of believers?

3. John 21 (a) does not speak of peter's salvation, (b) does not say Jesus accepts Peter's "best effort", and (c) does not bring any light to this discussion.



You are absolutely correct. I believe God accepts us based on the merit of his son's completed work on the cross.



As stated before in other threads, the "Through Faith in the truth" clause could refer either to salvation, or to the choosing..." That debate will likely not be solved here.



Here we get to the real issue, I think...in that I believe there is NNE who does even their best. It's not as though people are trying their very best to love and trust God. We cannot even live up to our own standards, much less God's.

Van's language here must be taken in context with his statements elsewhere that salvation is all of God, and that even our love and faith are not meritorious...HOWEVER, using language like "God accepts our best effort" and "God does the rest" is very dangerous.


Also as part of this discussion is whether it is possible for a human to obey the great commandment and love God with ALL their heart...
-I say no...Van says yes.

What say the Baptist-board experts???

John Wesley said that the mark of a Christian is that he/she should and can love God with all our heart, mind, souls and strength and our neighbor as ourself, and to walk as He walked.

I don't believe that is possible. That's one reason I am not a Wesleyan. But I'm not a Calvinist, either.

 

[Van]

...and can we do what God requires? (Continued from another thread).

Here's what we have so far...I'll give what I said earlier, then a few new responses to Van's points:

Originally Posted by 12strings:
All of scripture shows that no one can meet his standard of acceptance...if they could, Jesus would not have had to die on a cross. If there were people who were capable of loving God with all of their heart, soul, mind, & strength, they would not need to be redeemed. That is not even a Calvinism issue.

How do we define "meeting God's standard of acceptance?" If God credits our faith as righteousness, then His standard of acceptance has be met.

1. What exactly is false in my statement above? Are you saying it completely false & devoid of truth to say that humans cannot meet God's standard of acceptance??? If so, why the cross?

The cross provides the means of salvation for anyone God places "in Christ" where we undergo the washing of regeneration.

2. Matthew 23:13 does not say how or why those who "Would" enter were entering...and how does this fit with your stated agreement with Eternal security of believers?

Yes it says they were entering, yet were prevented from entering by false teaching. Thus in their unregenerate state, they had the capacity to be entering. Therefore total spiritual inability is false doctrine. The phrase is once saved, not once on the way to salvation, we are always saved. No conflict, just a red herring.

3. John 21 (a) does not speak of peter's salvation, (b) does not say Jesus accepts Peter's "best effort", and (c) does not bring any light to this discussion.

Yet another complete denial of scripture. Did Peter love Jesus unconditionally? Nope. But was his love sufficient for Jesus. Yes. Your effort to deny this directly addresses the issue of God accepting our love and devotion from the heart, even though less than the unconditional love of God, directly illuminates our discussion.

You are absolutely correct. I believe God accepts us based on the merit of his son's completed work on the cross.

Once a deflection, a shuck and jive. We are talking about God accepting our faith and devotion and crediting it as righteousness, and you are mixing in being washed with his blood. An obvious effort at obfuscation.

As stated before in other threads, the "Through Faith in the truth" clause could refer either to salvation, or to the choosing..." That debate will likely not be solved here.

There is no debate, the syntax requires the clause to apply to choice and not salvation. Here again Calvinism simply rewrites the verse to avoid what it says.

Here we get to the real issue, I think...in that I believe there is NNE who does even their best. It's not as though people are trying their very best to love and trust God. We cannot even live up to our own standards, much less God's.

More shuck and jive. I say best effort, and that gets rewritten has very best possible effort. Then, once again it is claimed we must live up to God's standards, rather than humbling ourselves and relying of the grace of God.

Van's language here must be taken in context with his statements elsewhere that salvation is all of God, and that even our love and faith are not meritorious...HOWEVER, using language like "God accepts our best effort" and "God does the rest" is very dangerous.

There is nothing dangerous with truth. God accepts us where we are (ever hear the song just as I am) and saves us. Calvinism makes a mockery of God keeping His promise to those who love Him.

Also as part of this discussion is whether it is possible for a human to obey the great commandment and love God with ALL their heart...
-I say no...Van says yes.

What say the Baptist-board experts???

Yet again this is not up for debate, scripture is crystal. God chooses people who are rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love Him. Do not fall for the shuck and jive where 12 strings says we must meet the standard perfectly, we put or faith and devotion in Christ from the heart and God does the rest.