What does it mean to say God is "Good"?

[Winman]

I'm talking about good. God is good and he is perfectly good. We don't say he's good because he acts a certain way, but that he's good period. We know that truth is good because God is truth.

Lying is evil, lying is not good. If Jesus had denied that he knew his Father, then he would have been a liar. He would no longer be good.

This view is absurd, God cannot just do whatever and that makes it good, it must truly BE good.

I think folks are confused because God commanded Joshua to destroy all the inhabitants of Canaan, including the infants and children. Folks have a difficult time with this.

God is our God, he can determine when each of us dies. Whether you die at birth, or age 102, you are going to die, as it is appointed unto all men to die.

Babies who die go to heaven, so that is really not bad, in fact, it is very good. If these babies would have grown, they would have reverted to the religion of their parents and corrupted the children of Israel. Therefore, it was better they die and go to heaven, than live to adulthood and go to hell, also teaching the Israelites their ways.

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.

In this case it was good that the children die. They would go to heaven, and the Jews would not be corrupted by them when they grew up.

We can see this in our own country, many African-Americans have converted to Islam because their ancestors were Muslims. This is why God had the Jews kill these particular children.

 

[jbh28]

Lying is evil, lying is not good.

On what basis do you make this claim?
How do you know lying is evil and not good?

This view is absurd, God cannot just do whatever and that makes it good, it must truly BE good.

What are you using to determine what is "good"?

 

[Luke2427]

Miss-type....I mean to say I am NOT an Open-Theist.

I'm so glad.

A friend of mine who follows these posts read where you typed that you were an open theist and was crest fallen.

He texted me and said, "HoS is an open theist!"

We were both sad to hear that. We both think you have a sharp mind and enjoy reading your posts.

I'm thankful for the clarification.

 

[Winman]

On what basis do you make this claim?
How do you know lying is evil and not good?


What are you using to determine what is "good"?

This post of yours would be funny, except I realize you are serious.

Do you not know that all sin is evil? Lying is a sin, it is evil. All lies come from Satan, he is the father of lies.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If you do not know that lying is evil, you need to go to another church my friend. If you are being taught that God can lie, you are being taught lies.

 

[jbh28]

Do you not know that all sin is evil?

Yes, of course I do. I was asking you how you came to the conclusion.

Lying is a sin, it is evil. All lies come from Satan, he is the father of lies.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

If you do not know that lying is evil, you need to go to another church my friend. If you are being taught that God can lie, you are being taught lies.

Well, I never said I didn't know lying was evil now did I? I asked you on what basis do you determine that lying is evil and that lying is not good. We know that lying is evil God is truth. Therefore, when we see a lie, we know it's evil and not good.

We determine good because we see who God is. We don't put God in a box and say he's good because he acts a certain way. We say an action is good because God does it. God is truth. Therefore, lying is evil, it's the opposite of good. So on what basis do I say that lying is evil and not good? It's based on the fact that God is truth. Therefore truth is good and lying is evil.

 

[Winman]

Yes, of course I do. I was asking you how you came to the conclusion.
Well, I never said I didn't know lying was evil now did I? I asked you on what basis do you determine that lying is evil and that lying is not good. We know that lying is evil God is truth. Therefore, when we see a lie, we know it's evil and not good.

We determine good because we see who God is. We don't put God in a box and say he's good because he acts a certain way. We say an action is good because God does it. God is truth. Therefore, lying is evil, it's the opposite of good. So on what basis do I say that lying is evil and not good? It's based on the fact that God is truth. Therefore truth is good and lying is evil.

No, God cannot simply do whatever he pleases, and the fact that he did it makes it good. That view is refuted by Jesus.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus could not tell these persons he did not know his Father or he would have been a liar like them. This easily refutes your view.

 

[jbh28]

No, God cannot simply do whatever he pleases,

yes he can.

and the fact that he did it makes it good.

Yes it does. How else do you determine that something is evil? Unless you have a worldly view of "good" you would agree that whatever God does is good.

That view is refuted by Jesus.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus could not tell these persons he did not know his Father or he would have been a liar like them. This easily refutes your view.

Jesus is not addressing our point. On what basis do you determine that lying is evil? It's because God is truth. God is not a liar. Therefore, truth is good. If God does something, it is good by definition. You keep putting something greater than God.

So I shall ask again. on what basis do you determine that something is good? I base it on God, what do you base it on?

 

[Winman]

yes he can.

No he can't.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God CANNOT lie. Scripture doesn't say God chooses not to lie, it says he CANNOT lie. So God cannot do whatever he pleases, God cannot sin.

Yes it does. How else do you determine that something is evil? Unless you have a worldly view of "good" you would agree that whatever God does is good.

That is not true, my view of what is good and evil comes from God. God tells us what is good and what is evil. God commanded that we should not bear false witness. To lie is evil and sin. There are many things that God has told us is evil, such as stealing, or murder.

Jesus is not addressing our point. On what basis do you determine that lying is evil? It's because God is truth. God is not a liar. Therefore, truth is good. If God does something, it is good by definition. You keep putting something greater than God.

So I shall ask again. on what basis do you determine that something is good? I base it on God, what do you base it on?

Jesus is directly saying he is limited in what he could say. He could not say that he did not know the Father, otherwise he would no longer be good, but would be a liar and a sinner like the rest of us.

I can't believe fellas like you and Luke believe this nonsense. In your view, there is no difference between God and Satan, God could lie, steal, murder, whatever, and it would be good simply because he did it.

When God had certain persons killed, it was because they were truly wicked persons who deserved death. God does not kill for sport.

 

[jbh28]

No he can't.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God CANNOT lie. Scripture doesn't say God chooses not to lie, it says he CANNOT lie. So God cannot do whatever he pleases, God cannot sin.

Of course because how could you disobey yourself. That's not what we are speaking about

That is not true, my view of what is good and evil comes from God. God tells us what is good and what is evil.

very good

God commanded that we should not bear false witness. To lie is evil and sin. There are many things that God has told us is evil, such as stealing, or murder.

Yes, again very true. And as you noted above, God is truth, so then we conclude that truth is good and lying is evil because God is truth and cannot lie. Do you understand where I'm coming from now. I didn't make up that lying is evil and then see if God abides by that rule. I said that lying is evil because God said it's evil.

Jesus is directly saying he is limited in what he could say. He could not say that he did not know the Father, otherwise he would no longer be good, but would be a liar and a sinner like the rest of us.

This shows how important the righteousness of Jesus here on earth was. He couldn't have paid for our sins if he was a sinner himself.

I can't believe fellas like you and Luke believe this nonsense. In your view, there is no difference between God and Satan, God could lie, steal, murder, whatever, and it would be good simply because he did it.

So if God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

 

[Winman]

Of course because how could you disobey yourself. That's not what we are speaking about

very good
Yes, again very true. And as you noted above, God is truth, so then we conclude that truth is good and lying is evil because God is truth and cannot lie. Do you understand where I'm coming from now. I didn't make up that lying is evil and then see if God abides by that rule. I said that lying is evil because God said it's evil.

This shows how important the righteousness of Jesus here on earth was. He couldn't have paid for our sins if he was a sinner himself.

So if God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

I disagree, and so do the scriptures. When God was going down to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham questioned God whether he would destroy the righteous with the wicked. Abraham absolutely expected God to do right according to his own sense of justice.

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And what is more, God agreed with Abraham, and finally said that if there were 10 righteous persons in Sodom, he would not destroy it. Unfortunately, there were not 10 righteous persons in the city. And those that were righteous, Lot and his family, God brought out of the city before he destroyed it.

So again, scripture does not agree with your view. Abraham as a man could question God according to his innate sense of justice, and God responded to it.

 

[jbh28]

I disagree, and so do the scriptures. When God was going down to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham questioned God whether he would destroy the righteous with the wicked. Abraham absolutely expected God to do right according to his own sense of justice.

Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And what is more, God agreed with Abraham, and finally said that if there were 10 righteous persons in Sodom, he would not destroy it. Unfortunately, there were not 10 righteous persons in the city. And those that were righteous, Lot and his family, God brought out of the city before he destroyed it.

So again, scripture does not agree with your view. Abraham as a man could question God according to his innate sense of justice, and God responded to it.

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Further, you didn't answer a single question

If God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

 

[Winman]

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Further, you didn't answer a single question

If God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

Your opinion, I do not believe Abraham would have agreed with you, he expected God to spare righteous people and not to destroy them with the wicked.

I guess you need to ignore scripture like this.

 

[jbh28]

Your opinion, I do not believe Abraham would have agreed with you, he expected God to spare righteous people and not to destroy them with the wicked.

I guess you need to ignore scripture like this.

This, again, has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I'm not ignoring anything. It's off topic.
You have not answered my question .

If God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

 

[Winman]

This, again, has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I'm not ignoring anything. It's off topic.
You have not answered my question .

If God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

It's not off topic, it relates DIRECTLY to what you have said. You have said that God is not good because man thinks he is good, and I have showed you scripture that refutes your view. Abraham absolutely expected God to be just according to his personal definition and sense of what is just. Abraham did not believe righteous persons should be destroyed because of wicked persons, and he expected God to be the same way.

You can deny all you want, but Abraham asked:

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

I don't expect you to agree, you NEVER admit (or even believe) you are wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree. But in your view words like "truth" have no meaning whatsoever. Such is Calvinism.

 

[jbh28]

It's not off topic, it relates DIRECTLY to what you have said. You have said that God is not good because man thinks he is good,

I never said that God is not good. Not once. I said God is good because he is good. We do'nt determine what the good is, God does. ]quote] and I have showed you scripture that refutes your view. Abraham absolutely expected God to be just according to his personal definition and sense of what is just. Abraham did not believe righteous persons should be destroyed because of wicked persons, and he expected God to be the same way. [/quote]Again, off topic. Abraham expted God to be just because, well God is just. Abraham is not dictating here what good is.

You can deny all you want, but Abraham asked:

Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

.

of course God will do right, but Abraham nor you nor me get to dictate what good is. Abraham isn't defining good.

AGAIN... Please answer the question if you disagree with me. It should be easy.

If God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.


The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

 

[Winman]

I never said that God is not good. Not once. I said God is good because he is good. We do'nt determine what the good is, God does.

and I have showed you scripture that refutes your view. Abraham absolutely expected God to be just according to his personal definition and sense of what is just. Abraham did not believe righteous persons should be destroyed because of wicked persons, and he expected God to be the same way.

Again, off topic. Abraham expted God to be just because, well God is just. Abraham is not dictating here what good is.
of course God will do right, but Abraham nor you nor me get to dictate what good is. Abraham isn't defining good.

Nonsense, Abraham was absolutely defining what he believed to be good and just.

AGAIN... Please answer the question if you disagree with me. It should be easy.

No, you want me to agree with your nonsense.

If God lied, stole and murdered, on what basis would you say it was evil? On what basis do you say evil is evil and good is good.

Look, you do not have to have a written law to understand these things are wrong. If you had never known a law, or heard of God, and you saw three teenagers attack an elderly man and beat him to death you would innately understand it to be wrong.

The truth is that lying, stealing and murdering are evil because God is good and God doesn't lie, steal or murder. God is our moral standard, not you or me. We cannot put God in a box and say he is good because he acts a certain way. We know what is good by looking at God. Lying is wrong and evil because God doesn't lie. Stealing is wrong and evil because God doesn't steal. We know that murdering is wrong and evil because God doesn't murder.

No, truth is truth because truth can only be truth. Any falsehood cannot be truth, that is IMPOSSIBLE.

Whatever dude, you simply will never admit when you are wrong. Abraham absolutely expected God to conform to his own definition of what is just.

You just keep on believing like a hyper-Calvinist. In your system, God can be evil, and yet you call it good. Insane.

 

[jbh28]

I and I have showed you scripture that refutes your view. Abraham absolutely expected God to be just according to his personal definition and sense of what is just. Abraham did not believe righteous persons should be destroyed because of wicked persons, and he expected God to be the same way.

First, no. Abraham is not defining what makes God good. That would put Abraham over God. God would then be answerable to Abraham. This never says that this defines what just is.

Whatever dude, you simply will never admit when you are wrong. Abraham absolutely expected God to conform to his own definition of what is just.

No, Abraham does not define what just is. Sure, he could say what Abraham thinks is just, but what is just and good is what and who God is. You are manipulating a text and placing God under Abraham.

And you still haven't answered the question. I guess you don't have an answer. My definition of Good comes from God. You think you get to make your own up and make God answerable. God was not answerable to Abraham. Abraham didn't create what was just and then God had to abide by that. What you have done is made the definition of "just" to be because of what Abraham expected. Abraham expected God to be just because God is just

No, you want me to agree with your nonsense.

I'm asking you how you determine these things are good or evil. It shouldn't be that hard for you. Is lying evil?

Look, you do not have to have a written law to understand these things are wrong. If you had never known a law, or heard of God, and you saw three teenagers attack an elderly man and beat him to death you would innately understand it to be wrong.

Of course. but is this really how you define what is good. Just what you feel? You sound like the world. I define what is good by reading my Bible and learning about God. I do not get to dictate to God what is good. He dictates that to me. God is good period. Anything God does is good. you say something is evil and God does it, you are wrong. The fact that God did it makes it good. that's why I asked you how do you define what is good. You either do it yourself(your own law) or let God do it.

No, truth is truth because truth can only be truth. Any falsehood cannot be truth, that is IMPOSSIBLE.

Of course. No one has debated that. But on what basis do you say truth is good? Is it because God is truth? Or did you decide that you like truth and therefore truth is good? I say it's because God is truth. Therefore I should be true because God is.

God can be evil, and yet you call it good

This statement shows that this conversation is way over your head. Evil and Good are opposites. What we are talking about is what determines an action good or evil. God cannot do evil God is good. I've never said God could be evil. Please don't spread lies.

 

[Winman]

First, no. Abraham is not defining what makes God good. That would put Abraham over God. God would then be answerable to Abraham. This never says that this defines what just is.

You are just wrong. Abraham would not have questioned God at all if he believed as you do, because he would have believed whatever God did was just. That is NOT what happened, Abraham said "Far be it from you to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked".

Abraham in effect asked God, "Aren't you going to do what is right?"

You are just plain wrong, but you will NEVER admit it.

No, Abraham does not define what just is. Sure, he could say what Abraham thinks is just, but what is just and good is what and who God is. You are manipulating a text and placing God under Abraham.

It is you that is attempting (UNSUCCESSFULLY) to manipulate the word of God.

And you still haven't answered the question. I guess you don't have an answer. My definition of Good comes from God. You think you get to make your own up and make God answerable. God was not answerable to Abraham. Abraham didn't create what was just and then God had to abide by that. What you have done is made the definition of "just" to be because of what Abraham expected. Abraham expected God to be just because God is just

That is only PART of the answer. We know what is good by the laws God has given us, but in Romans 2 Paul said men instinctively know what is good because the law is written on their heart and conscience.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul said men WITHOUT LAW shall perish (spiritual death) WITHOUT THE LAW. Why? Because they have the law written on their hearts. Men are made in the image of God, and innately understand right from wrong. And men expect God to be GOOD.

I am not going to keep arguing with you, if you want to continue in your folly, that is your privilege.

 

[jbh28]

You are just wrong. Abraham would not have questioned God at all if he believed as you do, because he would have believed whatever God did was just. That is NOT what happened, Abraham said "Far be it from you to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked".

Abraham in effect asked God, "Aren't you going to do what is right?"

You are just plain wrong, but you will NEVER admit it.

Abraham knew who God was. Abraham is not determining what is just nor good here. He is simply stating that God will do what is right.

That is only PART of the answer. We know what is good by the laws God has given us, but in Romans 2 Paul said men instinctively know what is good because the law is written on their heart and conscience.

Yes, that is true as well. And thanks for finding that verse to answer your question from before. It's God not man making the laws.

Paul said men WITHOUT LAW shall perish (spiritual death) WITHOUT THE LAW. Why? Because they have the law written on their hearts. Men are made in the image of God, and innately understand right from wrong. And men expect God to be GOOD.

And God is good. And God wrote those laws.

I am not going to keep arguing with you, if you want to continue in your folly, that is your privilege.

First, we agree we determine good by God's laws. God says don't kill, so therefore we are not to kill. My point is that it's God, not man that makes God good. We don't come up with the rules that make God good. Whatever God does is good by definition. God is truth, therefore lying is evil. God is just, therefore being unjust is evil. Here's the big difference

View 1:
Truth is good
God is truth
God is good

View 2:
God is good
God is truth
Truth is good.

I'm view 2. My premise is that God is good period. Whatever he does is good. I then see what he does and see what is good. The other view(view 1) sets our own rules for good and then sees if God fits the criteria. God is not good because he is truth, truth is good because God is true. God is the source of good.

 

[Aaron]

No, Good is his character. God does not ever DO anything unjust or fiendish. Some things may indeed appear that way to us at first sight, such as the slaughter of the Amalekites...but, it is not so. What God did was neither unjust nor fiendish.

No it would not be truth. And it would not be good. To believe as you do renders the words "lie", "truth", "good", "evil" etc... into meaninglessness. Given what you believe the statement "God cannot lie" now means literally nothing.

It is a mistaken point. It self-defeats.

Correct. But, since they DO exist, they serve to limit the range of possible actions that we now know God might possibly take. God would not, now, since we know him to be good, randomly torture babies for fun. And if he did, then to say that he is "good" would merely be to say "God is _______".

It is not good because he DOES it, it is good because it is WHO HE IS...similarly, what he says is true not because he says it, but, because it is in fact TRUE.

Yes

And so, we're back to the logical conclusion of your argument: "Good" is a standard by which God can be judged. That is only possible if "good" is a standard that we can discern that exists apart and independent of God.