What does it take for the Holy Spirit to live inside a person?

[utilyan]

I have not read this thread, but this line caught my eye: My view is that their are zero verses or passages that teach once a person is saved (born anew and sealed in Christ) that something can take them out of God's hand.

Someone cited Matthew 18:21-35, where someone who has been forgiven is subsequently turnover over to the tortures. Then the spiritual application is given, if you do not forgive your brother, from the heart, you will be turned over to the tortures. The question is does this apply to those not yet saved, or does it apply to those who have been born anew. Is this Old Covenant theology or New Covenant theology?

God knows our heart attitudes, and if after being offered forgiveness for all we have done or ever will do, we are unable to forgive what we see as faults of others, it shows we do not actually love God more than ourselves. Such a person would not chosen, and on that day will be told, depart from Me, I never knew you. Not I knew you once, but you blew it.

He is talking to Peter. Pick your poison. Peter is unsaved and there is something required to DO to be saved. Peter is Saved and there is something required to DO to keep salvation.

You need to organize the Timeline of events. God forgave him FIRST because he pleaded for mercy.

If your forgiven are you not saved there?

Some folks here would argue your sins can't be forgiven unless you are saved.


This is the word of Jesus Christ, there is NO WAY OSAS sneak around this one. I don't think even the devil can help you on this one.


We won't get sermons bout this from OSAS believers. Skip over it real fast. pretend God didn't forgive.



35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

NO HE AIN'T JESUS! NO He already saved me! I don't have to DO NOTHING!

 

[Van]

I have no issue with the timeline, Peter was not born anew until after Christ died. And then Peter was indwelt about 50 days after Christ died.

When are our sins forgiven and the sin burden, what God holds against the sinner, removed? Not until the sinner is washed by the blood of Christ, not until the washing of regeneration, not until the circumcision of Christ.

You say "He is talking about Peter." What verse are you referring to?

As I said, there are no verses that conflict with OSAS. Matthew 18:21-35 did not.

I am not trying to sneak, misconstrue, twist, or otherwise alter scripture.

A person can be forgiven and not be saved from the penalty of the forgiven sin. Only the blood of Christ can remove that sin burden.

Lets look at Matthew 9:2, where Jesus says "your sins are forgiven." Was this person born anew? Nope. Saved? Nope. Washed with the blood of Christ? Nope. But he had obtained the golden ticket, and when Christ shed His blood, that person was then saved under the New Covenant in His blood.

 

[Van]

Luke 11
13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

Maybe I am a little dense, but I do not see how this verse says or suggests the lost of salvation.

Lets take a verse or passage one at a time and see if loss of salvation (being unborn and no longer a new creation) can be supported. There is no hurry.

 

[Samuels]

... being offered forgiveness for all we have done or ever will do ...

The question, of course, is ... Is this true?
And note your word "offered" does not mean "given".

 

[Samuels]

35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Just another anti-OSAS verse!

Will the Holy Spirit be successful in getting
born-again Christians to forgive everyone
who has terribly wronged them?

If not ... OSAS is false because
Father God will not forgive them!
If Father God will not forgive them,
will He welcome them into heaven?

 

[Samuels]

Luke 11:13
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

I have always seen this verse as referring
NOT to salvation, but to being baptized
with the Holy Spirit (with the initial confirmation
of speaking at least a few words in tongues).

Proof:
No one receives the Holy Spirit
(as in being born-again from above)
just by asking for the Holy Spirit.
One receives Him inside, if he/she has been
chosen by God before the foundation of
the world to become one of God's elect.
I.E. God must give a person the necessary
gift of faith in order for him/her to be able
to believe in Jesus and His precious gospel.

 

[Van]

Thanks Samuels for engaging. Here is what I said, "God knows our heart attitudes, and if after being offered forgiveness for all we have done or ever will do, we are unable to forgive what we see as faults of others, it shows we do not actually love God more than ourselves. [/quote]

Leaving aside your contention that salvation does not cover future sinful thoughts or acts, the idea is the setting is before salvation. Thus verse Matthew 18:35 is teaching that our hearts love and gratitude toward God because of being forgiven is validated by our humility and forgiving attitude toward others.

To clarify, the OSAS view of Matthew 18:21-35 is this is addressing the condition of our heart before we are saved, and indicates that a person's lack of compassion and forgiveness toward others, will result in God not accepting their faith as righteousness.

You asked if born anew believers will always forgive others. The answer, based on my own experience, is no, we will still stumble and do acts which our indwelt Holy Spirit convicts us as sinful. But the deal is, and the one you do not accept, is even though we do sinful acts after we are born anew, they are not counted against us, because our justification covers past, present and future sins.

 

[Samuels]

But the deal is, and the one you do not accept, is even though we do sinful acts after we are born anew, they are not counted against us, because our justification covers past, present and future sins.

Yes, but your view does NOT take into account
the many NT verses that warn against loss of salvation
(which you do not see/believe/accept).

 

[Van]

Proof:
No one receives the Holy Spirit
(as in being born-again from above)
just by asking for the Holy Spirit.
One receives Him inside, if he/she has been
chosen by God before the foundation of
the world to become one of God's elect.
I.E. God must give a person the necessary
gift of faith in order for him/her to be able to believe.

1) No one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit just by asking. True, it is God who decides who to put into Christ, and then to seal in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

2) One receives Him if he/she has been chosen by God. True

3) Chosen as an individual before the foundation of the world. False, but lets not get side-tracked.

4) God must give a lost person His revelatory grace (the gospel of Christ) in order to believe. True.
The concept of the gift of faith (via irresistible grace) is false in my opinion.

Bottom line, Luke 11:13 has nothing to do with the concept of losing salvation. It is about being persistent in prayer for our needs.

 

[Van]

Yes, but your view does NOT take into account
the many NT verses that warn against loss of salvation
(which you do not see/believe/accept).

I believe my view takes into account every verse in the bible. So list another one claimed to teach lost of salvation. When I say "salvation" I am talking about being "in Christ" as a born anew, indwelt believer, a new creation. But after we are saved positionally (put into Christ spiritually) we earn rewards (or not) by our service - ministry - as ambassadors of Christ. We can lose or not earn rewards and therefore lose that part or aspect of salvation. So lets be clear, we are not talking about loss of salvation rewards, but about salvation from God transferring us out of the realm of darkness (in Adam) and putting us in Christ (kingdom of His Son.)

 

[revmwc]

I believe my view takes into account every verse in the bible. So list another one claimed to teach lost of salvation. When I say "salvation" I am talking about being "in Christ" as a born anew, indwelt believer, a new creation. But after we are saved positionally (put into Christ spiritually) we earn rewards (or not) by our service - ministry - as ambassadors of Christ. We can lose or not earn rewards and therefore lose that part or aspect of salvation. So lets be clear, we are not talking about loss of salvation rewards, but about salvation from God transferring us out of the realm of darkness (in Adam) and putting us in Christ (kingdom of His Son.)

And how do we become in Christ? Paul explains it in Romans 3:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
By Faith in His blood justified FREELY by GRACE not by being self-righteous and believing one doesn't commit sin or walk in sin Redemption is in Christ whom God set forth to become the appeasement for sin which again is by His blood. So what do we see in http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/matthew/18:21-35 the exact same thin we see in 1 John 2:2 Christ became the appeasement for sin whose sin all sin not for ours only but for the world, since this world as a sphere can't sin then the world would infer all of mankind. Sin has never been the issue and will never be the issue, As we see in Romans 3 it is a faith issue has a person truly believed on Jesus, if so they are truly saved and their sins were and are still forgiven because of the blood of Christ. To say one can lose their salvation is to say there is no saving power in the blood of Christ and that is entirely against scripture! We see Ephesians 2:13 sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. The blood draws us near to Christ not our self-righteousness

 

[utilyan]

I have no issue with the timeline, Peter was not born anew until after Christ died. And then Peter was indwelt about 50 days after Christ died.

When are our sins forgiven and the sin burden, what God holds against the sinner, removed? Not until the sinner is washed by the blood of Christ, not until the washing of regeneration, not until the circumcision of Christ.

You say "He is talking about Peter." What verse are you referring to?

As I said, there are no verses that conflict with OSAS. Matthew 18:21-35 did not.

I am not trying to sneak, misconstrue, twist, or otherwise alter scripture.

A person can be forgiven and not be saved from the penalty of the forgiven sin. Only the blood of Christ can remove that sin burden.

Lets look at Matthew 9:2, where Jesus says "your sins are forgiven." Was this person born anew? Nope. Saved? Nope. Washed with the blood of Christ? Nope. But he had obtained the golden ticket, and when Christ shed His blood, that person was then saved under the New Covenant in His blood.

"A person can be forgiven and not be saved from the penalty of the forgiven sin"

Expand on this. Example.


"32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me:"

Scripture said God has forgive ALL DEBT. Which is why he suffered no penalty in the beginning.

 

[Van]

And how do we become in Christ? Paul explains it in Romans 3:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
By Faith in His blood justified FREELY by GRACE not by being self-righteous and believing one doesn't commit sin or walk in sin Redemption is in Christ whom God set forth to become the appeasement for sin which again is by His blood. So what do we see in http://www.baptistboard.com/bible/matthew/18:21-35 the exact same thin we see in 1 John 2:2 Christ became the appeasement for sin whose sin all sin not for ours only but for the world, since this world as a sphere can't sin then the world would infer all of mankind. Sin has never been the issue and will never be the issue, As we see in Romans 3 it is a faith issue has a person truly believed on Jesus, if so they are truly saved and their sins were and are still forgiven because of the blood of Christ. To say one can lose their salvation is to say there is no saving power in the blood of Christ and that is entirely against scripture! We see Ephesians 2:13 sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. The blood draws us near to Christ not our self-righteousness

No sure what the point of your post was. Are you disagreeing with me?

We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that "is in Christ Jesus." Thus immediately after God transfers us into His Son's kingdom, we are justified, washed with His blood, made perfect. Only when we are placed in the propitiatory shelter of Christ are we justified on the basis of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

Just to make sure you grasp the obvious - no one can lose their salvation, OSAS.

 

[Van]

"A person can be forgiven and not be saved from the penalty of the forgiven sin"

Expand on this. Example.

"32 Then his lord called him unto him, and saith to him, Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou besoughtest me:"

Scripture said God has forgive ALL DEBT. Which is why he suffered no penalty in the beginning.

I think, utilyan, you are trying to say Matthew 18:21-35 applies to people after they have been born anew. If so, you are misconstruing the passage. Before Jesus died, people obtained approval through faith. Jesus told them that their sins had been forgiven. They were ear-marked, destined, for salvation under the New Covenant after Christ died. No one was born anew, made a new creation, indwelt with the Holy Spirit until after Christ died. The unforgiving servant had not been saved, he serves as an example that no one will be saved who has an unforgiving heart.

 

[revmwc]

No sure what the point of your post was. Are you disagreeing with me?

We are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that "is in Christ Jesus." Thus immediately after God transfers us into His Son's kingdom, we are justified, washed with His blood, made perfect. Only when we are placed in the propitiatory shelter of Christ are we justified on the basis of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

Just to make sure you grasp the obvious - no one can lose their salvation, OSAS.

Just adding to your point

 

[Samuels]

I believe my view takes into account every verse in the bible.
So list another one claimed to teach lost of salvation.
When I say "salvation" I am talking about being "in Christ"
as a born anew, indwelt believer, a new creation.

Heretofore is my current favorite (#1 of 100) ...
Revelation 21:
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,
and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

This MUST apply to every human being on earth!
2 major types of people are in view here:
saved overcomers ...and... unsaved sinners!

People need to research and discover what the NT means
when it talks about being an overcomer!
Yes, this requires some doing on our part.
Revelation 3:
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

 

[Van]

Hi Samuels, I do not see how Revelation 21: 7-8 and Revelation 3:21 teach or somehow support loss of salvation.

Christ is the over-comer, and therefore everyone God puts in Christ not only is born anew but also becomes an over-comer, enjoying the benefit of Christ's accomplishment. See 1 John 5:3-5.

 

[Yeshua1]

The false teaching of the imaginary person in the flesh.....an unsaved person....who is saved and yet remains in the flesh is a repeated falsehood that has no place in this discussion
.

r a

Real Christians can and still do the things of the flesh, as we have to still deal with sinful natures while in this body, but the one who professes I am saved and whose lifestyle keeps on showing sinning and little or no regards for it, that is the lost..

There are Spirit filled christians, who continue to yeild to Him, and keep on reckoning themselves as dead to sin...
Carnal christians are those who are saved, but find themselves in sin for a season
Lost/unsaved flashly persons are those whose very habits and lifestyles still reflect sin natures

 

[Yeshua1]

But he doesn't lose his salvation

Indeed not, as the Bible makes it clear that salvation is the very work of God, and that all he saves are secured by him in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit!

 

[Samuels]

There are Spirit filled christians, who continue to yeild to Him, and keep on reckoning themselves as dead to sin...

I know it's a waste of time to explain to Yeshua1
that born-again Christians who have NOT been
baptized with the Holy Spirit (with the initial
confirmation of tongues) are NOT Spirit-filled.

They have received the Holy Spirit inside,
but they are NOT Spirit-filled.

When one receives the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Spirit has come UPON the person
and he/she has been filled to overflowing.
Hence the term "filled".

Here's a job for someone ...
check all instances in the NT that talk about
the Holy Spirit being inside, and see if there
is any mentioned of them being "filled".
I sincerely doubt that there are any.