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What does Romans 9:18 mean?
- Thread starter rpniman
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Allan,Allan said:No, God will harden those who will NOT repent.
Classic EXEGESIS.
Rom 1:18-31
2 Thes 2:1-12
Prov 1:20-33
are 3 examples which are very plain, but only some among many
God hardens the disobedient in their sins AFTER they have rejected truth.
Even if these passages hold true, and that is debated, and that is also a path away from the subject, but even if they be true, you missed what was said.
So... Allan please reread what JD says.
it is clear not in the passage as Clark has said it was. This is classic eisogesis.
You know James... I hate it when you are (at times) right.Jarthur001 said:Allan,
Even if these passages hold true, and that is debated, and that is also a path away from the subject, but even if they be true, you missed what was said.
So... Allan please reread what JD says.
it is clear not in the passage as Clark has said it was. This is classic eisogesis.
It wasn't what JD wrote however that I needed to go back and reread but Clarke's quote. I didn't read the full quote from Adam Clarke but really only the later portion, so I admit this was one instance were I should have kept my fingers off the keyboard. But in either case, as you stated above, I missed what was said.
Therefore, I agree with you and JD on this one with regard to Adams Clarke's commentary on the passage is NOT an exegesis of scripture here.
1 point James :BangHead: Oh, that hurts!
Last edited by a moderator:
reformedbeliever
New Member
Personally, I'm more partial to Gill.
Here is the outline to his commentary. If the plain reading of scripture makes sense....... stick with it. Seems as if I've heard that before.
Romans 9 - INTRODUCTION TO ROMANS 9
The apostle having discoursed of justification and sanctification, and of the privileges of justified and sanctified ones, proceeds to treat of predestination, the source and spring of all the blessings of grace; and to observe how this distinguishing act of God's sovereign will has taken place, both among Jews and Gentiles; in treating of which, he knew he should go contrary to the sense of his countrymen the Jews, who have a notion that all Israel shall have a part in, or inherit the world to come (q): and that the Gentiles will be for ever miserable; and nothing was more disagreeable to them, than to talk of their rejection of God, and the calling of the Gentiles; wherefore that it might be manifest, that it was not out of pique and ill will to them, that the apostle said the things hereafter related; he expresses the most cordial affection to them imaginable, and which he introduces in Rom_9:1, by way of appeal to Christ, who knew the truth of what he was about to say, and who could, together with the Spirit of God and his own conscience, testify for him that it was no lie: the thing he appeals for the truth of, is in Rom_9:2, that the salvation of the Jews lay near his heart; that it was no pleasure to him to think or speak of their rejection, but was what gave him continual pain and uneasiness: and his great desire for their good is expressed in a very strong and uncommon manner, Rom_9:3, the reasons of it are partly the relation they stood in to him, being his brethren and kinsmen; and partly the many privileges they had been favoured with of God; an enumeration of which is given, Rom_9:4, and foreseeing an objection, he prevents it, which might be made, that if the Jews were cast off, the promise of God to that people that he would be their God, would become void, and the preaching the Gospel of Christ to them of no effect; to which he answers by distinguishing between Israel and Israel, or the elect of God among them, and those that were not; wherefore though the latter were rejected according to the purpose of God, the promise and preaching of the word had their effect in the former, Rom_9:6, and that there was such a distinction, he proves from the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, who were both Abraham's seed; yet one was a child of promise, and the other a child of the flesh, and were emblematical of the children of the promise, and the children of the flesh among that people; Rom_9:7, and further confirms this by the instance of Jacob and Esau, who were born of the same parents, and were twins; and yet one was in the favour of God, and the other not; and that this was owing not to works, but to the sovereign will of God in election, he proves by observing that this was before good or evil were done by either of them, Rom_9:11, and that this was notified to Rebekah before, Rom_9:12, as appears from a passage in Gen_25:23, and by another passage in Mal_1:2, which is cited, Rom_9:13, then an objection is started, Rom_9:14, that if God loves one, and hates another, both being in equal circumstances, as Jacob and Esau were, he must be guilty of unrighteousness; which he answers and removes, first by a detestation of such a charge against God, and then by producing testimonies out of the books of Moses, proving both election and reprobation, as being not of the works of men, but of the will of God; the former of these he proves, Rom_9:15, from Exo_33:19, by which it appears, that the choice of men to salvation is not according to the will of man, but according to the grace and love of God, Rom_9:16, the latter he proves by the case of Pharaoh, Rom_9:17, and the Scripture relating to that, Exo_9:16, and from both testimonies concludes, Rom_9:18, that God's having mercy on one, and hardening another, are according to his sovereign will and pleasure; then another objection rises, up, if so, God has no reason to find fault with men that are hardened in sin, since they are according to his will, and in sinning do but fulfil it, and which no man resists; and this objection is formed in a very pert and sneering manner, and insinuates that God is cruel and acts unreasonably, Rom_9:19, to which he answers, by putting the objector in mind that he was a man, a mere creature that started it, and that it was God against whom it was made; and by observing the folly and madness of replying against God, and the absurdity of such a procedure, taken from the consideration of the one being a creature, and the other the Creator, Rom_9:20, and by instancing in the case of the potter, who has power over his clay, to form it in what shape, and for what use he pleases, Rom_9:21, and accommodates this, both to the affair of election and reprobation, and to the business of the latter first, Rom_9:22, where he observes the end of God in it to show forth his power and wrath, and describes the subjects of it, which clears him from injustice, and points at the patience of God towards them, which frees him from the charge of cruelty, Rom_9:22, and then proceeds to apply the metaphor before used, to the objects of election styled vessels of mercy, and the end of the Lord to manifest the riches of his glory in them, and the method he takes to bring them to eternal happiness, by preparing them for it by grace, Rom_9:23, which is done in the effectual calling, the objects of which are both Jews and Gentiles, Rom_9:24, That it is the will of God that the Gentiles should be called, he proves, Rom_9:25, from some passages in Hosea, Hos_2:23, and that God had chosen, and so would call some among the Jews, he clearly makes appear, Rom_9:27, from some prophecies of Isaiah, Isa_10:22, and then he concludes the chapter by observing the free and distinguishing grace of God, in the calling of the Gentiles, and the justification of them by the righteousness of Christ; that such who were far off from it, and sought not after it, should enjoy it, Rom_9:30, when the Israelites, who were diligent and zealous in seeking after a righteousness to justify them before God, yet did not arrive to one, Rom_9:31, the reasons of which are given, Rom_9:32, because it was not the righteousness of faith, or the righteousness of Christ received by faith they sought; but a legal one, and by works which can never be attained by sinful men: they sought after a wrong righteousness, and in a wrong way, because they stumbled at Christ, and rejected him and his righteousness; and this removes an objection which is suggested in the two preceding verses, that God is unrighteous in calling the Gentiles, who never sought after righteousness, and in rejecting the Jews that followed after one: and that they did stumble at Christ and his righteousness, is no other than what was foretold in Isa_8:14, and that whoever believes in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, shall be saved, he suggests is a doctrine agreeably to Isa_28:16, which passages are referred to, Rom_9:33
(q) Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 11. sect. 1.
Here is the outline to his commentary. If the plain reading of scripture makes sense....... stick with it. Seems as if I've heard that before.
Romans 9 - INTRODUCTION TO ROMANS 9
The apostle having discoursed of justification and sanctification, and of the privileges of justified and sanctified ones, proceeds to treat of predestination, the source and spring of all the blessings of grace; and to observe how this distinguishing act of God's sovereign will has taken place, both among Jews and Gentiles; in treating of which, he knew he should go contrary to the sense of his countrymen the Jews, who have a notion that all Israel shall have a part in, or inherit the world to come (q): and that the Gentiles will be for ever miserable; and nothing was more disagreeable to them, than to talk of their rejection of God, and the calling of the Gentiles; wherefore that it might be manifest, that it was not out of pique and ill will to them, that the apostle said the things hereafter related; he expresses the most cordial affection to them imaginable, and which he introduces in Rom_9:1, by way of appeal to Christ, who knew the truth of what he was about to say, and who could, together with the Spirit of God and his own conscience, testify for him that it was no lie: the thing he appeals for the truth of, is in Rom_9:2, that the salvation of the Jews lay near his heart; that it was no pleasure to him to think or speak of their rejection, but was what gave him continual pain and uneasiness: and his great desire for their good is expressed in a very strong and uncommon manner, Rom_9:3, the reasons of it are partly the relation they stood in to him, being his brethren and kinsmen; and partly the many privileges they had been favoured with of God; an enumeration of which is given, Rom_9:4, and foreseeing an objection, he prevents it, which might be made, that if the Jews were cast off, the promise of God to that people that he would be their God, would become void, and the preaching the Gospel of Christ to them of no effect; to which he answers by distinguishing between Israel and Israel, or the elect of God among them, and those that were not; wherefore though the latter were rejected according to the purpose of God, the promise and preaching of the word had their effect in the former, Rom_9:6, and that there was such a distinction, he proves from the two sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, who were both Abraham's seed; yet one was a child of promise, and the other a child of the flesh, and were emblematical of the children of the promise, and the children of the flesh among that people; Rom_9:7, and further confirms this by the instance of Jacob and Esau, who were born of the same parents, and were twins; and yet one was in the favour of God, and the other not; and that this was owing not to works, but to the sovereign will of God in election, he proves by observing that this was before good or evil were done by either of them, Rom_9:11, and that this was notified to Rebekah before, Rom_9:12, as appears from a passage in Gen_25:23, and by another passage in Mal_1:2, which is cited, Rom_9:13, then an objection is started, Rom_9:14, that if God loves one, and hates another, both being in equal circumstances, as Jacob and Esau were, he must be guilty of unrighteousness; which he answers and removes, first by a detestation of such a charge against God, and then by producing testimonies out of the books of Moses, proving both election and reprobation, as being not of the works of men, but of the will of God; the former of these he proves, Rom_9:15, from Exo_33:19, by which it appears, that the choice of men to salvation is not according to the will of man, but according to the grace and love of God, Rom_9:16, the latter he proves by the case of Pharaoh, Rom_9:17, and the Scripture relating to that, Exo_9:16, and from both testimonies concludes, Rom_9:18, that God's having mercy on one, and hardening another, are according to his sovereign will and pleasure; then another objection rises, up, if so, God has no reason to find fault with men that are hardened in sin, since they are according to his will, and in sinning do but fulfil it, and which no man resists; and this objection is formed in a very pert and sneering manner, and insinuates that God is cruel and acts unreasonably, Rom_9:19, to which he answers, by putting the objector in mind that he was a man, a mere creature that started it, and that it was God against whom it was made; and by observing the folly and madness of replying against God, and the absurdity of such a procedure, taken from the consideration of the one being a creature, and the other the Creator, Rom_9:20, and by instancing in the case of the potter, who has power over his clay, to form it in what shape, and for what use he pleases, Rom_9:21, and accommodates this, both to the affair of election and reprobation, and to the business of the latter first, Rom_9:22, where he observes the end of God in it to show forth his power and wrath, and describes the subjects of it, which clears him from injustice, and points at the patience of God towards them, which frees him from the charge of cruelty, Rom_9:22, and then proceeds to apply the metaphor before used, to the objects of election styled vessels of mercy, and the end of the Lord to manifest the riches of his glory in them, and the method he takes to bring them to eternal happiness, by preparing them for it by grace, Rom_9:23, which is done in the effectual calling, the objects of which are both Jews and Gentiles, Rom_9:24, That it is the will of God that the Gentiles should be called, he proves, Rom_9:25, from some passages in Hosea, Hos_2:23, and that God had chosen, and so would call some among the Jews, he clearly makes appear, Rom_9:27, from some prophecies of Isaiah, Isa_10:22, and then he concludes the chapter by observing the free and distinguishing grace of God, in the calling of the Gentiles, and the justification of them by the righteousness of Christ; that such who were far off from it, and sought not after it, should enjoy it, Rom_9:30, when the Israelites, who were diligent and zealous in seeking after a righteousness to justify them before God, yet did not arrive to one, Rom_9:31, the reasons of which are given, Rom_9:32, because it was not the righteousness of faith, or the righteousness of Christ received by faith they sought; but a legal one, and by works which can never be attained by sinful men: they sought after a wrong righteousness, and in a wrong way, because they stumbled at Christ, and rejected him and his righteousness; and this removes an objection which is suggested in the two preceding verses, that God is unrighteous in calling the Gentiles, who never sought after righteousness, and in rejecting the Jews that followed after one: and that they did stumble at Christ and his righteousness, is no other than what was foretold in Isa_8:14, and that whoever believes in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, shall be saved, he suggests is a doctrine agreeably to Isa_28:16, which passages are referred to, Rom_9:33
(q) Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 11. sect. 1.
I agree RB. And since nothing in the text speaks to or of reprobation, I contend that it is a presupposition that must be 'brought into' the text. For without it it would not appear to support the chapter as being specifically about salvation but purpose. That is one of the reasons I don't agree with Gill and other Reformers on that position.reformedbeliever said:
Wow, that's amazing RB. That's the very thing I was trying to post earlier today but I got busy and didn't get back to it. Thank you. But I was going to emphasize this portion of it, which I believe is the key to the whole passage:reformedbeliever said:
"to which he answers by distinguishing between Israel and Israel, or the elect of God among them, and those that were not;"
webdog said:
Even if Romans 9 - 11 is only about 'God's sovereign election of Israel', then it shows that He chose not to save those outside the community of Israel in OT times (except for those whom He drew that were privileged to be in close proximity - like Rahab).
Last I checked, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever - especially with respect with His sovereign electing grace.
Dan V.
Pilgrimer
Member
rpniman said:
How did God harden Pharaoh's heart? By reaching down and turning some switch from "soft" to "hard"? Or was it by God sending Moses to command Pharaoh to "let my people go," thus challenging Pharaoh's authority and power? Now I suspect Pharaoh was a very proud man, not much prone to humility, so God making such a challenge, in public no less, was like throwing a gauntlet in the face of a man who fancied himself the most powerful entity on earth. Sometimes knowing the outcome before it happens is not so much divine power but a little knowledge of human nature. But to jump to the conclusion that since God hardened Pharaoh's heart Pharaoh therefore had no choice in the matter is a leap that I don't think is warranted.
God has mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and from everything I have read and understand from the Gospel, the ones whom God has chosen to have mercy upon is "whosoever lives and believes in him."
It seems like "predestinarians" believe God acts in a man's heart and life independent of the man himself or the man's own will and desires, or at the least overrides them as you state above, when in truth God works with a man and his will and desires.
In Christ,
Deborah
How God has used men doesn't mean He uses all men the same way. God used Pharaoh for a purpose the same way he used Judas. The question really is are you to be used in any way to bring about God's will. I believe God let Pharaoh have just enough rope to hang himself with. It was Pharaoh that hung him self in his own rebellion. God gave him the opportunity to cooperate before each disaster hit. Pharaoh also hardened his own heart to begin with. All Calvinist can see is that God harden his heart and they hang on to that to prove there theories of unalterable predestination. Although Predestination in the Greek is never defined as unalterable. Placing God in a box to make sure God does what He is suppose to is ridiculous because everyone knows that all things are possible with God. Pharaoh was not predestined to rebel as Calvinist would like us all to believe. The Calvinist will rely on his own logic to explain any futher because he has nothing else.rpniman said:
MB
Hi Web dog;
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
MB
Actually Paul said something I thought you might find interesting.webdog said:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
MB
Salamander
New Member
I can agree if you are saying what I know to be true: that God dealt with all men the same by bring reproof and thereby conviction into the lives of all men and it is the direct result of their response that either hardens by their rebellion or alots mercy when they respond in godly sorrow.TCGreek said:
There is a direct correlation to II Cor 7 here.
Pharoah was certainly not elect, he never got saved. He did experience worldly sorrow under the judgement of God, but never repented. He did have "respite", but Pharoah found no rest.