What does the full meaning of propitiation mean to us?

[Rex77]

npetreley quote
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2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

This only presents a problem if you interpret "whole world" to mean every man without exception. "Whole world" also means every man without distinction, that is, from among every tribe, nation, etc.
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Paul knew what all men meant, and commanded us to teach it.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello ituttut,

This is a good time to ask are there any Calvinist here? Any that believes in "Limited Atonement", i.e. a "five pointer"? If so then they can no longer be a "five pointer" if they understand "propitiation".

When you say limited, do you mean particular atonement or limited to those that believe?

I John 2:1-2, " My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

I believe it helps to understand in God's salvation are three basic doctrines, viz. Redemption, Reconciliation, and Propitiation.

I see salvation within three major doctrines too. But I would change that list. Mine would be redemption, propitiation/atonement, and justification.

The atonement is made toward ------->God for our sins..the very sin acts on our account.
Because God is pleased with the scarifice God then justifies---------->man
Both of these acts together is .......Propitiation + Justification = Reconciliation

We are also redeemed. Christ paid a ransom-------------->for us to buy us from the slave market of sin.

Note..we still have that sin nature...but we now have Holy Spirit to help control it.
Note #2...One action is toward God the Father...the other two actions come to us. We do nothing but believe.

That is how I see it.



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't agree with you on most of this. Many subject changes involved. The point is, they were denying the Lord that bought them. Whatever you think they were doing, not doing, gonna do, or not gonna do, they were bought. Were they saved?

Yes...saved

 

[Blammo]

Yes...saved

I disagree. Maybe you should read the rest of the chapter. These guys are lost.

 

[Jarthur001]

I disagree. Maybe you should read the rest of the chapter. These guys are lost.

ok....will do and get back with ya.

Ok..i just got back in time to edit this. I read the chapter. What do you base this on?

and...if they are saved....what does this mean?
if they are lost...what does this mean?

as far as propitiation or ransom.

In Christ..James

 

[Jarthur001]

oops...posted 2 times.

 

[Blammo]

and...if they are saved....what does this mean?
if they are lost...what does this mean?

as far as propitiation or ransom.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

It means that, even though they are lost, the Lord bought them.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This is why I am still not convinced on "limited atonement". As I have said many times before, the power in the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse all the sins of all men, throughout all time.

 

[Jarthur001]

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

It means that, even though they are lost, the Lord bought them.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This is why I am still not convinced on "limited atonement". As I have said many times before, the power in the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse all the sins of all men, throughout all time.

Brother Blammo,

I understand. I can go many ways on this one. I'm not sure..to tell you the truth. I need to study it. The one time I did look at it before...some say this "lord"...is not Christ...and does not mean salvation. Others said it is..and is talking about slaves...or something..in the OT. Its been a while. But..must be up front with ya...I don't know right now.

However, I do think it is clear that the context is as a stated before. I understand you do not think so...or at least did not agree with how i said it.

As to atonement..I hate that word "limited" I mean it. I do not think it paints the best picture. This may be why it took me over 10 years even to look at the subject. I held to election early...as many Baptist do. But the church is spit on this "atonement". I respect your view. I just no longer hold to this.

Though you do not hold to Calvinism, I do hope you see why some think the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace. Now I understand, you disagree.

Later this week, i'll try to look at your passage with greater study on the word LORD..and give you my input.



In Christ...James

 

[Blammo]

Though you do not hold to Calvinism, I do hope you see why some think the Bible teaches the doctrines of grace.

Absolutely, James. It's definately a tough subject to debate on either side. I think there are clearly some verses in Scripture that support either side of this debate. I'll confess I am at a point where I think maybe a little of both is true. In fact I think Scripture clearly shows this. I can't make sense of it right now, but, I am giving it much thought and study. That is the best thing I have gotten out of these debates so far. (I am studying God's word more than ever.)

God bless you.

 

[npetreley]

Paul knew what all men meant, and commanded us to teach it.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Hmmmm.... that "specially of those that believe" sure sounds like a subset of all men to me.

 

[ituttut]

Hello ituttut,
Quote:
This is a good time to ask are there any Calvinist here? Any that believes in "Limited Atonement", i.e. a "five pointer"? If so then they can no longer be a "five pointer" if they understand "propitiation".


When you say limited, do you mean particular atonement or limited to those that believe?

As many Calvinist's believe in T.U.L.I.P, they believe "Limited Atonement". This is the belief Christ only died for the "elect". This fly's in the face of I Timothy 4:10, and I John 2:2 quoted right below.

Quote:
I John 2:1-2, " My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

I believe it helps to understand in God's salvation are three basic doctrines, viz. Redemption, Reconciliation, and Propitiation.



I see salvation within three major doctrines too. But I would change that list. Mine would be redemption, propitiation/atonement, and justification.

The atonement is made toward ------->God for our sins..the very sin acts on our account.
Because God is pleased with the scarifice God then justifies---------->man
Both of these acts together is .......Propitiation + Justification = Reconciliation

We are also redeemed. Christ paid a ransom-------------->for us to buy us from the slave market of sin.

Note..we still have that sin nature...but we now have Holy Spirit to help control it.
Note #2...One action is toward God the Father...the other two actions come to us. We do nothing but believe.

That is how I see it.

I could live with that for we have the same ingredients, as long as you don't lump "reconciliation" of the whole world to the "two" gospels of "justification". You'll notice I included in Reconciliation "justification" also. Before "reconciliation" justification was by faith. "Reconciliation" only came after our being "justified through faith".

 

[Jarthur001]

As many Calvinist's believe in T.U.L.I.P, they believe "Limited Atonement". This is the belief Christ only died for the "elect". This fly's in the face of I Timothy 4:10, and I John 2:2 quoted right below.I could live with that for we have the same ingredients, as long as you don't lump "reconciliation" of the whole world to the "two" gospels of "justification". You'll notice I included in Reconciliation "justification" also. Before "reconciliation" justification was by faith. "Reconciliation" only came after our being "justified through faith".

Yes I know the meaning of L, but I wanted to be clear this is what you meant. The L was added to make a name of a flower. The reformers called it particular atonement and I like this better for it shows the best picture. The reason why...both sides limit atonement.

John Owen points out in His classic work, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, that only three positions are possible regarding the extent of the atonement

(a) Jesus died for the sins of all people.
(b) Jesus died for all the sins of some people.
(c) Jesus died for some sins of all people.

Now, if position c is correct, then all are still in their sins. If position a is correct, then why are all not saved? If the answer is because of unbelief, I ask:

Is not unbelief a sin for which Christ died to atone?
Christ said....

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If Christ died for the sin of unbelief for all people, then why are people punished for the sin of unbelief? The only consistent position is b, for it satisfies both reason and experience.

If Christ died to make salvation possible for all people, a salvation in faith, and a faith that comes from the preaching of the gospel (Rom. 10), then why do not all hear the gospel? We have an all wise God who desires the salvation of all people, yet He in full design sets some people .....the very ones He desires to saved ... in a time and place that ensures they never hear the gospel with their ears.

Owen says that "If God by the atonement of His beloved Son, purposes all to be saved and yet some do not hear the gospel, which is absolutely necessary for salvation, then one of two things must also be true.

1) Either salvation is possible apart from faith.
or
2) God cannot bring to pass that which he has purposed from all eternity to do.

We must reject both conclusions. The only Biblical solution is the doctrine of Particular Redemption. If God's purpose and design of Christ's death is the salvation of all people, without exception, then one must either question God's wisdom in the use of the means for which He intends to accomplish this purpose, or question His power and skill to use appropriate means.

The argument against Calvinists is that if those who never hear the gospel live up to the light that is given to them, then God will save them.

Several problems exist with this view. 1st.... by living up to the light within can only mean doing what we know we ought to do. If we do this, according to this view, God will save us. Yet ....this is salvation by works, something which the Bible rejects.

2nd, the Bible does not support this view, and in fact states clearly that salvation is only through Jesus Christ and faith in Him.

3rd, if God purposed to save all, then why does the Gospel of John states:

John. 12.39-40
"For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts; lest they see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them" ?

4th. You are now open to include pegan worship. If God saved just by faith alone, If all that one kowns is a rock to be God, then faith in that rock will save Him. Salvation is only though faith in Christ alone.



In Christ...James

 

[ituttut]

Originally Posted by ituttut
As many Calvinist's believe in T.U.L.I.P, they believe "Limited Atonement". This is the belief Christ only died for the "elect". This fly's in the face of I Timothy 4:10, and I John 2:2 quoted right below.I could live with that for we have the same ingredients, as long as you don't lump "reconciliation" of the whole world to the "two" gospels of "justification". You'll notice I included in Reconciliation "justification" also. Before "reconciliation" justification was by faith. "Reconciliation" only came after our being "justified through faith".

Yes I know the meaning of L, but I wanted to be clear this is what you meant. The L was added to make a name of a flower. The reformers called it particular atonement and I like this better for it shows the best picture. The reason why...both sides limit atonement.

The L was also used for it fit the doctrine of atonement that was particularly limited. What particular part of atonement is limited?

John Owen points out in His classic work, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, that only three positions are possible regarding the extent of the atonement

(a) Jesus died for the sins of all people.
(b) Jesus died for all the sins of some people.
(c) Jesus died for some sins of all people.

Now, if position c is correct, then all are still in their sins. If position a is correct, then why are all not saved? If the answer is because of unbelief, I ask:

Is not unbelief a sin for which Christ died to atone?
Christ said....

Without question. When one believes, proof of atonement is made for the unbeliever. All have the right to access atonement, but not all do. They therefore make a conscious choice not to take the gift. Their refusal in no way limits atonement in any of its particulars. We cannot place the encumbrance on God for He offers salvation to all that "will". We see this in John 3:16. A is correct for Christ died for all. It does not say all will be saved.

.

Quote:
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


If Christ died for the sin of unbelief for all people, then why are people punished for the sin of unbelief? The only consistent position is b, for it satisfies both reason and experience.

B is consistent theology of man, not scripture. Our reasoning and experience is the tradition of man of head and not of heart. God gave to His only begotten Son certain ones while He was on earth, and we are not included, and Jesus prayed for them. Jesus while on this earth did not pray for me, a Gentile as He did not pray for "dogs".

We today are to listen to Christ Jesus from heaven as revealed to us in the Epistles of Paul. Does Paul say Christ told him to "hang onto the Old", or everything is now New? II Corinthians 5:16-18, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation".

If Christ died to make salvation possible for all people, a salvation in faith, and a faith that comes from the preaching of the gospel (Rom. 10), then why do not all hear the gospel? We have an all wise God who desires the salvation of all people, yet He in full design sets some people .....the very ones He desires to saved ... in a time and place that ensures they never hear the gospel with their ears.

Romans 1:19 puts us on the road to understanding. "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." He did? Yes according to Romans 2:15 we are made cognizant of the "law written in our hearts", our conscience bearing witness also. No one born of man and woman are without witness of "good and evil".

Let's go back to Genesis 4:26, "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." When any man called upon the name of the Lord, in other dispensations, they heard from God (Noah, Abram, etc), but we are in this dispensation. We even see this in Acts 10 when God sent Peter to Cornelius. This is the first Gentile Peter had ever preached to or at. And we notice that God will not allow Peter to preach his(Peter's gospel) to a Gentile, but Paul's gospel, which Christ said He would give to Paul in Acts 9. It is Paul's gospel that we must listen to for understanding as we hear the Word of God. Today we will be "chosen" when we "hear" which proves "atonement" is made for the "unbeliever".

Christ Jesus from heaven gave to Paul his gospel, and it is a "dispensational gospel" for everyone today. Atonement is for everybody. "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit", Ephesians 3:1-5 and on.

So "atonement" is without flaw. In this dispensation, after our salvation by the Grace of God through faith, without works (as demanded by all before), it is we in "Christ's stead" that preach His "Unsearchable Riches". Israel had their prophets and Israel killed them, and did not "HEAR" them, but just some individual's as today. Today it is we Gentile's (and those of Jewish faith that come as we) that are to get the Word to the World, and it is up to them (all men)to HEAR. Paul says I go to the Gentile, for they will HEAR. When we hear and obey we then "do the work we were born to, that of "good works" after our salvation". The best good work I believe we can do is Spread the "grace commission" of Christ Jesus from heaven of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and all who do will be saved".

To continue account length.

 

[ituttut]

ituttut's reply continued.

Owen says that "If God by the atonement of His beloved Son, purposes all to be saved and yet some do not hear the gospel, which is absolutely necessary for salvation, then one of two things must also be true.

1) Either salvation is possible apart from faith.
or
2) God cannot bring to pass that which he has purposed from all eternity to do.

We must reject both conclusions. The only Biblical solution is the doctrine of Particular Redemption. If God's purpose and design of Christ's death is the salvation of all people, without exception, then one must either question God's wisdom in the use of the means for which He intends to accomplish this purpose, or question His power and skill to use appropriate means.

I don't care how you (John Owen) express it, it contradicts the Word. You bat the wind, for "…he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Doesn't this disprove John Owen's theory as presented?

The argument against Calvinists is that if those who never hear the gospel live up to the light that is given to them, then God will save them.

Several problems exist with this view. 1st.... by living up to the light within can only mean doing what we know we ought to do. If we do this, according to this view, God will save us. Yet ....this is salvation by works, something which the Bible rejects.

2nd, the Bible does not support this view, and in fact states clearly that salvation is only through Jesus Christ and faith in Him.

3rd, if God purposed to save all, then why does the Gospel of John states:

Quote:
John. 12.39-40
"For this cause they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts; lest they see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, and be converted, and I heal them" ?


4th. You are now open to include pegan worship. If God saved just by faith alone, If all that one kowns is a rock to be God, then faith in that rock will save Him. Salvation is only though faith in Christ alone.

James, I have never given the view you place here. But to answer we must be "dispensational" to understand our salvation.

Your first presentation is invalid for we are in the Body of Christ, and it is He that did all the work, so it is not something we do.

Your second is correct, and that is the reason I have never given the view you present. This is the view of a "dispensationalist".


Your third (and also fourth) is in error of my belief. I have never said it was the purpose of God to save all. If it had been, then all would be saved. Atonement was made for all, but His Word never says all will be saved. Those holding such a view are in error, and you endeavor to place all that do not hold to your view as being in error. So you and I here agree with His Word that all are not saved.


His people went the way of the heathen and to their idols so His nation stayed in unbelief of what God had told them, so it was their choice and God acted on their choice, blinding them, and hardened their heart. Atonement at the Cross would be made for them, but they chose not to accept it. They cannot be the "chosen" for they rejected to be chosen by God. Those of "covenant" held up their hands and said yes we will make covenant with you God. With their "reason and experience" they chose, but not in their hearts.

In your fourth, you say I am open to "pagan" worship, but my faith will not allow this for I am saved "through" the faith of Jesus Christ, and that is not my faith, but His. Are you saying Christ Jesus in whom we are sealed will allow us to be "pagan" worshippers? Those in other "dispensations" could be, for they came by faith as we see in Hebrews 11.

If you can disprove I John 2:2, then your (John Owen) theory could be taken a step further, but it is dead when placed beside truth.