What does the full meaning of propitiation mean to us?

npetreley quote
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2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

This only presents a problem if you interpret "whole world" to mean every man without exception. "Whole world" also means every man without distinction, that is, from among every tribe, nation, etc.
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Paul knew what all men meant, and commanded us to teach it.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

 

I disagree. Maybe you should read the rest of the chapter. These guys are lost.

 

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

It means that, even though they are lost, the Lord bought them.

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This is why I am still not convinced on "limited atonement". As I have said many times before, the power in the blood of Christ is sufficient to cleanse all the sins of all men, throughout all time.

 

Absolutely, James. It's definately a tough subject to debate on either side. I think there are clearly some verses in Scripture that support either side of this debate. I'll confess I am at a point where I think maybe a little of both is true. In fact I think Scripture clearly shows this. I can't make sense of it right now, but, I am giving it much thought and study. That is the best thing I have gotten out of these debates so far. (I am studying God's word more than ever.)

God bless you.

 

Hmmmm.... that "specially of those that believe" sure sounds like a subset of all men to me.

 

As many Calvinist's believe in T.U.L.I.P, they believe "Limited Atonement". This is the belief Christ only died for the "elect". This fly's in the face of I Timothy 4:10, and I John 2:2 quoted right below.

I could live with that for we have the same ingredients, as long as you don't lump "reconciliation" of the whole world to the "two" gospels of "justification". You'll notice I included in Reconciliation "justification" also. Before "reconciliation" justification was by faith. "Reconciliation" only came after our being "justified through faith".

 

The L was also used for it fit the doctrine of atonement that was particularly limited. What particular part of atonement is limited?

Without question. When one believes, proof of atonement is made for the unbeliever. All have the right to access atonement, but not all do. They therefore make a conscious choice not to take the gift. Their refusal in no way limits atonement in any of its particulars. We cannot place the encumbrance on God for He offers salvation to all that "will". We see this in John 3:16. A is correct for Christ died for all. It does not say all will be saved.

B is consistent theology of man, not scripture. Our reasoning and experience is the tradition of man of head and not of heart. God gave to His only begotten Son certain ones while He was on earth, and we are not included, and Jesus prayed for them. Jesus while on this earth did not pray for me, a Gentile as He did not pray for "dogs".

We today are to listen to Christ Jesus from heaven as revealed to us in the Epistles of Paul. Does Paul say Christ told him to "hang onto the Old", or everything is now New? II Corinthians 5:16-18, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation".

Romans 1:19 puts us on the road to understanding. "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." He did? Yes according to Romans 2:15 we are made cognizant of the "law written in our hearts", our conscience bearing witness also. No one born of man and woman are without witness of "good and evil".

Let's go back to Genesis 4:26, "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord." When any man called upon the name of the Lord, in other dispensations, they heard from God (Noah, Abram, etc), but we are in this dispensation. We even see this in Acts 10 when God sent Peter to Cornelius. This is the first Gentile Peter had ever preached to or at. And we notice that God will not allow Peter to preach his(Peter's gospel) to a Gentile, but Paul's gospel, which Christ said He would give to Paul in Acts 9. It is Paul's gospel that we must listen to for understanding as we hear the Word of God. Today we will be "chosen" when we "hear" which proves "atonement" is made for the "unbeliever".

Christ Jesus from heaven gave to Paul his gospel, and it is a "dispensational gospel" for everyone today. Atonement is for everybody. "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit", Ephesians 3:1-5 and on.

So "atonement" is without flaw. In this dispensation, after our salvation by the Grace of God through faith, without works (as demanded by all before), it is we in "Christ's stead" that preach His "Unsearchable Riches". Israel had their prophets and Israel killed them, and did not "HEAR" them, but just some individual's as today. Today it is we Gentile's (and those of Jewish faith that come as we) that are to get the Word to the World, and it is up to them (all men)to HEAR. Paul says I go to the Gentile, for they will HEAR. When we hear and obey we then "do the work we were born to, that of "good works" after our salvation". The best good work I believe we can do is Spread the "grace commission" of Christ Jesus from heaven of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and all who do will be saved".

To continue account length.

 

I don't care how you (John Owen) express it, it contradicts the Word. You bat the wind, for "…he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Doesn't this disprove John Owen's theory as presented?

James, I have never given the view you place here. But to answer we must be "dispensational" to understand our salvation.

Your first presentation is invalid for we are in the Body of Christ, and it is He that did all the work, so it is not something we do.

Your second is correct, and that is the reason I have never given the view you present. This is the view of a "dispensationalist".


Your third (and also fourth) is in error of my belief. I have never said it was the purpose of God to save all. If it had been, then all would be saved. Atonement was made for all, but His Word never says all will be saved. Those holding such a view are in error, and you endeavor to place all that do not hold to your view as being in error. So you and I here agree with His Word that all are not saved.


His people went the way of the heathen and to their idols so His nation stayed in unbelief of what God had told them, so it was their choice and God acted on their choice, blinding them, and hardened their heart. Atonement at the Cross would be made for them, but they chose not to accept it. They cannot be the "chosen" for they rejected to be chosen by God. Those of "covenant" held up their hands and said yes we will make covenant with you God. With their "reason and experience" they chose, but not in their hearts.

In your fourth, you say I am open to "pagan" worship, but my faith will not allow this for I am saved "through" the faith of Jesus Christ, and that is not my faith, but His. Are you saying Christ Jesus in whom we are sealed will allow us to be "pagan" worshippers? Those in other "dispensations" could be, for they came by faith as we see in Hebrews 11.

If you can disprove I John 2:2, then your (John Owen) theory could be taken a step further, but it is dead when placed beside truth.