What does the parable of the wedding banquet teach us about election?

[Dave...]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the details. It's something I ran across recently and I'm running it across you Baptist board dwellers.

I believe that the same word translated 'elect' in Matthew 24:22-24 is also used in verse in chapter 22:14 with the word "chosen". Matthew 22:1-14 provides context.

"And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding." ' But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen.""

As I see it, the King is God, the Son is Jesus, the wedding banquet is the kingdom of heaven. The initial guests are the Jewish people who rejected Jesus and the Prophets, and the second are the Gentiles. The the wedding garment, which will probably be the point of contention, I believe that it represents a genuine faith, thus defining who the elect are in the next verse.

Here's where Jesus uses the word translated 'elect' in Matthew 24

Matthew 24:22-24 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Here's the source that I read. I'm sure there are many like it.

Who Are The Elect In Matthew 24:22-24? — Gracereach

In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering the disciples’ question about the destruction of the buildings on the temple mount in Jerusalem and the question about the end of the age. They wanted to know when the destruction would happen and what would be the sign of his coming at the end of the age. In Jes

www.gracereach.org

Questions

1)Does the parable of the wedding banquet teach us anything about who the elect are?

2)Why would the Gentiles need to be grafted in in the first place, if everyone was chosen before the foundations of the world?

3) Here's a thought. is the man thrown out of the feast for not having on the wedding garment Judas? Who was it in representation?

What say you?

-----------------------

Another parable that could hold some answers, as it ends with the same phrase, "many are called, few are chosen"

Matthew 20:1-16 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day?' They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.' So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.' And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.0 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.' But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?' So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Thoughts?

 

[Charlie24]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the details. It's something I ran across recently and I'm running it across you Baptist board dwellers.

I believe that the same word translated 'elect' in Matthew 24:22-24 is also used in verse in chapter 22:14 with the word "chosen". Matthew 22:1-14 provides context.

"And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding." ' But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen.""

As I see it, the King is God, the Son is Jesus, the wedding banquet is the kingdom of heaven. The initial guests are the Jewish people who rejected Jesus and the Prophets, and the second are the Gentiles. The the wedding garment, which will probably be the point of contention, I believe that it represents a genuine faith, thus defining who the elect are in the next verse.

Here's where Jesus uses the word translated 'elect' in Matthew 24

Matthew 24:22-24 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Here's the source that I read. I'm sure there are many like it.

Who Are The Elect In Matthew 24:22-24? — Gracereach

In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering the disciples’ question about the destruction of the buildings on the temple mount in Jerusalem and the question about the end of the age. They wanted to know when the destruction would happen and what would be the sign of his coming at the end of the age. In Jes

www.gracereach.org

Questions

1)Does the parable of the wedding banquet teach us anything about who the elect are?

2)Why would the Gentiles need to be grafted in in the first place, if everyone was chosen before the foundations of the world?

3) Here's a thought. is the man thrown out of the feast for not having on the wedding garment Judas? Who was it in representation?

What say you?

-----------------------

Another parable that could hold some answers, as it ends with the same phrase, "many are called, few are chosen"

Matthew 20:1-16 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day?' They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.' So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.' And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.0 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.' But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?' So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Thoughts?

Here's the way I see it, Dave.

There are two "elects" in Scripture, Israel being the first and second are all who born-again in Christ Jesus.

Isaiah 45:4

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

Israel is God's "elect" but Israel is not saved. They are the "elect" in a purpose chosen by God above all the nations of the earth.

They were given the Law of God, and the Savior of the world, and salvation was first presented to them.

Matt. 24 is concerning God's elect, Israel.

The wedding garment as I see it in the parable is righteousness. The Scripture often refers the covering of righteousness as a garment.

It was custom of kings to furnish a wedding garment for the guests. This one man came to the wedding without a provided garment, which represented in the parable his self-righteousness, and He was cast out into outer darkness.

Vs. 14

"For many are called but few are chosen."

The chosen are those we hear and believe, choosing to trust in Christ and His righteousness, not their own.

 

[Dave G]

As I see it, the King is God, the Son is Jesus, the wedding banquet is the kingdom of heaven.

That's what I see as well.

The initial guests are the Jewish people who rejected Jesus and the Prophets, and the second are the Gentiles.

I agree..."them which are bidden..." is in the same sense as , " He came unto his own, and his own received him not. " The physical nation of Israel.
The second are what I see as both Jew and Gentile elect, seen here:

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." ( Romans 9:22-26 ).

...and here:

" But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." ( Romans 10:20-21 ).

Note:
In the phrase, "Many are called but few [are] chosen" in Matthew 22:14, I see the "many" being Israel as a nation, while those chosen were His elect remnant from out of that nation. This also goes on to include those Gentiles who are called, by the Holy Spirit and the preaching of God's word, out of the world as well:

" Other sheep I have that are not of this fold..."

 

[Dave G]

The the wedding garment, which will probably be the point of contention, I believe that it represents a genuine faith, thus defining who the elect are in the next verse

Yes, on that was are, unhappily for me, in disagreement... as I see the Scriptures themselves defining what the "garment" is:

" I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels." ( Isaiah 61:10 )

" Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy." ( Psalms 132:9 ).

" Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." (Revelation 19:8 ).

" Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." ( Revelation 3:4-6 ).

There are more.

 

[Dave G]

1)Does the parable of the wedding banquet teach us anything about who the elect are?

The parable itself?
Not really... and it's because parables, in and of themselves, are spiritual truths that are purposefully hidden within a story, which is why the Lord chose to plainly reveal some of them to His disciples in, say, Matthew 13 for example.

Despite this,
I hold that bringing in other things that the Scriptures tell us, will lead to an eventual understanding of all parables by those who are His... given enough time and study.

 

[Dave G]

2)Why would the Gentiles need to be grafted in in the first place, if everyone was chosen before the foundations of the world?

As I see it, you're asking a question that demands an answer from the Lord, not men.

That He decided to mainly reveal Himself to men through a particular lineage ( Abraham, Isaac and finally Jacob's ), and then broaden that revelation to include His elect Gentiles from every tongue, tribe and nation, is something to search His word for.
I don't recall, right now, if that particular question is answered by Him or not.

If I find a Scriptural answer, I'll post it.

 

[Dave G]

3) Here's a thought. is the man thrown out of the feast for not having on the wedding garment Judas? Who was it in representation?

No, but I see Judas being one example of people who "believed" and then fell away.

See Matthew 13 and the Lord's explanation of the parables of the sower and of the tares;
Not necessarily the parables themselves, but the fact that He chose to explain them, plainly, to the reader should help to answer some things related to this topic.

To me, the wedding garment represents Christ's righteousness imputed to His saints;
Those who do not have this "garment of righteousness" at the Judgement, represent all those not elect to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you"... when they thought that they did.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, on that was are, unhappily for me, in disagreement... as I see the Scriptures themselves defining what the "garment" is:

" I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels." ( Isaiah 61:10 )

" Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy." ( Psalms 132:9 ).

" Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." (Revelation 19:8 ).

" Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." ( Revelation 3:4-6 ).

There are more.

@Dave G we do disagree on a number of things but on this we do agree. The garments do represent the salvation that all those that will freely trust in God will receive.

The invitation of the gospel is for all whether Jew or Gentile, both evil and good that the wedding hall may be filled.

 

[Silverhair]

No, but I see Judas being one example of people who "believed" and then fell away.

See Matthew 13 and the Lord's explanation of the parables of the sower and of the tares;
Not necessarily the parables themselves, but the fact that He chose to explain them, plainly, to the reader should help to answer some things related to this topic.

To me, the wedding garment represents Christ's righteousness imputed to His saints;
Those who do not have this "garment of righteousness" at the Judgement, represent all those not elect to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you"... when they thought that they did.

@Dave G and here is where we disagree.

You see the man without a wedding garment as one who was not part of the "elect" from before the foundation of the world. The text as I see it does not support that view.

We see that God has given each guest a garment but the man thrown out it would seem did not see his need of that garment.

This is analogous to a man making a false profession of faith, one based on head knowledge not one from the heart. They know of Jesus but they do not know Jesus.

 

[Dave G]

You see the man without a wedding garment as one who was not part of the "elect" from before the foundation of the world. The text as I see it does not support that view.

Silverhair,

I do not know exactly why I am replying to you on this, since it seems I've received a fair bit of ( what I perceive to be ) hostility during our past interactions; Nevertheless, I do forgive you.
That said,
I will reply once again, knowing that there are many others who are reading this and may be interested in this thread.

Respectfully, I agree...
The text of the parable of the wedding garment in Matthew 22 alone does not directly support my view.

However, who are the righteous but those who are made righteous by the blood of God's Son on the cross?
Who are the righteous but those who have believed on His Son?
Who are the righteous but those who have Christ's imputed righteousness?
Who are the ones that shall come to the marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelation 19, "her", the bride of Christ... but those who are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; which is the righteousness of the saints?
Who are the members of the wedding party, but those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 )?
Who are the members of the wedding party but those given to Christ by the Father ( John 6:65, John 17:2 )?
Who are the righteous but those who love God and were called according to His purpose, were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:28-30 )?
Those vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles in Romans 9?
Who are the righteous but those that are the elect of God, holy and beloved ( Colossians 3:12 )?
Who are the righteous and members of the wedding party but those whom God is not willing that any of, perish ( John 3:16, John 10:28, 2 Peter 3:8-9 )?
...that God has declared shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life ( John 5:24 )?

I could list all the characteristics and details about God's children ( the saved ) from the Scriptures, and they would all apply equally, my friend.
Put all the pieces together and what do you see?


I see that they are all one and the same.

 

[Dave G]

We see that God has given each guest a garment but the man thrown out it would seem did not see his need of that garment.

Perhaps,
But I'm seeing something ( in addition to God giving each guest a garment ) that you may not be...
That the man that came in, came in without a garment:

" and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. " ( Matthew 22:12 ). <--- In modern English, "How did you come in here not having a wedding garment?"

I see that he came in not actually having one, which means ( to me ) that he wasn't invited;
He wasn't one of the ones that were compelled to come in, but tried to come in anyway.
Since the garment represents Christ's righteousness, then to me he didn't have one because he wasn't given one ( it )...
Not because he thought he had no need of it.

In the Scriptures, we see that the righteousness of the saints isn't earned, it's a gift that is received:

" For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. ) " ( Romans 5:17 ).

Do you see the correlation?

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair,
I do not know exactly why I am replying to you on this, since it seems I've received a fair bit of ( what I perceive to be ) hostility during our past interactions; Nevertheless, I do forgive you.
That said,
I will reply once again, knowing that there are many others who are reading this and may be interested in this thread.

Respectfully, I agree...
The text of the parable of the wedding garment in Matthew 22 alone does not directly support my view.

However, who are the righteous but those who are made righteous by the blood of God's Son on the cross?
Who are the righteous but those who have believed on His Son?
Who are the righteous but those who have Christ's imputed righteousness?
Who are the ones that shall come to the marriage supper of the Lamb in Revelation 19, "her", the bride of Christ... but those who are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; which is the righteousness of the saints?
Who are the members of the wedding party, but those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1 )?
Who are the members of the wedding party but those given to Christ by the Father ( John 6:65, John 17:2 )?
Who are the righteous but those who love God and were called according to His purpose, were foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:28-30 )?
Those vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory, not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles in Romans 9?
Who are the righteous but those that are the elect of God, holy and beloved ( Colossians 3:12 )?
Who are the righteous and members of the wedding party but those whom God is not willing that any of, perish ( John 3:16, John 10:28, 2 Peter 3:8-9 )?
...that God has declared shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto life ( John 5:24 )?

I could list all the characteristics and details about God's children ( the saved ) from the Scriptures, and they would all apply equally, my friend.
Put all the pieces together and what do you see?


I see that they are all one and the same.

No hostility intended Dave. If you get that from my disagreeing with your view and pointing out the errors in it then that is only from you reading hostility into my comments.

I can agree with much of what you said here Dave but then you go and read your religious views into the text rather than just getting your understanding from the text.

God foreknows all those that will freely trust in His risen Son and we are in Him when we believe. Eph 1:13

Those that the Father gives to the Son are those that have trusted in Him as we see here. Joh 17:20, Rom 10:9-10

The Father sent the Son as the savior of the world. Joh 3:17, 1Ti 2:3-4

No one is a vessel of mercy until they have trusted in God and His mercy. We are counted as righteous by God through our faith in Him. As we are told it is not those of the flesh but those of the promise who are God's children. Rom 9:8
Righteousness is reckoned in return for faith. Gen 15:6
This foundational truth is repeated three times in the New Testament (Rom_4:3; Gal_3:6; Jas_2:23)

You asked "Who are the righteous but those that are the elect of God," Paul gives us the answer in Galatians.
Gal 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

So while I can agree with much of what you have written as you can see not all that you have written.

 

[Silverhair]

Perhaps,
But I'm seeing something ( in addition to God giving each guest a garment ) that you may not be...
That the man that came in, came in without a garment:

" and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. " ( Matthew 22:12 ). <--- In modern English, "How did you come in here not having a wedding garment?"

I see that he came in not actually having one, which means ( to me ) that he wasn't invited;
He wasn't one of the ones that were compelled to come in, but tried to come in anyway.
Since the garment represents Christ's righteousness, then to me he didn't have one because he wasn't given one ( it )...
Not because he thought he had no need of it.

In the Scriptures, we see that the righteousness of the saints isn't earned, it's a gift that is received:

" For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. ) " ( Romans 5:17 ).

Do you see the correlation?

I understand what you are saying here, "That the man that came in, came in without a garment:". I agree that he came in without a garment but he would have been invited. We can see this in Mat 22:9 "and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast." We do not see any exclusion in those words but rather an invitation for all to come to the feast.

I know many on BB use the KJV but it does not say they were compelled to come to the feast "as many as ye shall find, bid G2564 to the marriage." KJV. So while no one is compelled to come but all are invited to come.

The fact that the man was found in the feast room without a garment would indicate that he did not think he needed one in order to be there. As we see in Mat 22:12 when he was confronted he was speechless/shocked that his presence would be questioned after all he had been invited. He just did not meet the requirements of being there, having a King given garment and thus was removed.

 

[Dave G]

No hostility intended Dave. If you get that from my disagreeing with your view and pointing out the errors in it then that is only from you reading hostility into my comments.

My mistake then.

I can agree with much of what you said here Dave but then you go and read your religious views into the text rather than just getting your understanding from the text.

Which is what I am doing...getting my understanding from the text, and by its context...
Whether that context is immediate as found in the passage, greater from other passages in the same book, or greatest from letter to letter, book to book, to me it's all inter-related and interconnected.

Did you think my "religious views" came from being instructed by a church, or a pastor, or an institution?
I can assure you that they have not. and they do not.
What you see is a result of me having had absolutely no influence from anything outside of the Bible for well over 18 years now.

No books on theology, no commentaries, just God's word and me studying it.

So while I can agree with much of what you have written as you can see not all that you have written.

Noted, and thank you for your candor.

 

[Silverhair]

My mistake then.

Which is what I am doing...getting my understanding from the text, and by its context...
Whether that context is immediate as found in the passage, greater from other passages in the same book, or greatest from letter to letter, book to book, to me it's all inter-related and interconnected.

Did you think my religious views came from being instructed by a church, or a pastor, or an institution?
I can assure you that they have not. and they do not.
I simply stopped listening to what was coming from the pulpits, and took the Lord seriously regarding His commandment to study to show myself approved unto God.

What you see is a result of me having had absolutely no influence from anything outside of the Bible for over 18 years now.
No books on theology, no commentaries, and no pulpit teaching.


Noted.

It would seem that you and I have approached the study of God's word in much the same way.

Where we do differ in that I will read commentaries as I do not know Greek or Hebrew. I do value the insights of those that God has gifted but what they write is not inspired but can be helpful.

I grew up being taught that the word of God is it's own best commentary.

While we do now and will continue to disagree on various points we are both sons of God.

 

[Dave...]

@Dave G , @Silverhair, @Charlie24

Something that stood out to me and has always bothered my was that we are always elect, or chosen "in Him". That was significant beyond the way most people understand it. Over and over in Ephesians 1 that point was emphasized. I wondered if we should be reading "in Him" as "through Him". Anyways, I started reading various points and listened to a few youtube videos, not for the reason of looking for answers per say, but more for finding the right questions to ask. Sometimes our brains get locked into thought patterns and we can miss stuff. So anyways, one guy brought up an interesting point that possibly answered my question about the significance of our being chosen "in Him". This may be obvious to some of you, but I never really looked at it this way. In some ways I did, but in some ways I didn't. That idea was that Jesus Himself was elect, chosen. Not to be saved, like us, but to be the means which we are saved. His point, or the perspective this guy had opened my eyes a bit. He said they we are elect in Christ, means that "in Him" we have God's prescribed, chosen way for us to have life. It's hard to put into words so I'll use Scripture.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

1 Peter 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."

Now, understanding this, that all the benefits, or blessings of our salvation come through Jesus, by being "in Him" (I know, you already knew that), but seeing our election in that, at least to me, gives life to the context of Ephesians when it's speaking about the elect. Ephesians 1"3-14 now flows, and I can see whole point being made. I haven't thought this all the way through and tested in thoroughly, but it's looking like there's something here. In Ephes. 1:3-14, look at the constant emphasis of "in Christ". And consider, that what was predestined from the foundations of the world, was not God randomly picking or electing people, rather, what was predestined was the means by which believers will be delivered. The Lamb slain from the foundations of the world, elected, or chosen for this purpose. In Him, we become elect also. Read it that way, and hopefully you'll see what I'm seeing. You have a few options here, either we are "in Him" from the foundations of the world, which I do not believe is possible according to Scripture, or, it's the means of our being elect, "in Him", that is being emphasized. Remember, Paul is speaking to believers. Also remember that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, I believe that means life. That when He begins a good work in us, He will finish it, thus we are elect in Him. That's the idea I'm getting from this now. Again, remember, Paul is speaking to believers.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places *in Christ*,
4 just as He chose us *in Him* before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 *In Him* we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things *in Christ*, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--*in Him.*
11 *In Him* also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

And this is the significance of the garment, that the Garment represents that they are "in Christ".

Am I reading too much into that? The idea that we are "in Him" from the foundation s of the world doesn't sit right with me. We must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be "in Him". What say you? Should we only look at Election as something we are, or have "in Christ"? That sets boundaries to define the rest.

Dave

 

[Charlie24]

@Dave G , @Silverhair, @Charlie24

Something that stood out to me and has always bothered my was that we are always elect, or chosen "in Him". That was significant beyond the way most people understand it. Over and over in Ephesians 1 that point was emphasized. I wondered if we should be reading "in Him" as "through Him". Anyways, I started reading various points and listened to a few youtube videos, not for the reason of looking for answers per say, but more for finding the right questions to ask. Sometimes our brains get locked into thought patterns and we can miss stuff. So anyways, one guy brought up an interesting point that possibly answered my question about the significance of our being chosen "in Him". This may be obvious to some of you, but I never really looked at it this way. In some ways I did, but in some ways I didn't. That idea was that Jesus Himself was elect, chosen. Not to be saved, like us, but to be the means which we are saved. His point, or the perspective this guy had opened my eyes a bit. He said they we are elect in Christ, means that "in Him" we have God's prescribed, chosen way for us to have life. It's hard to put into words so I'll use Scripture.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

1 Peter 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."

Now, understanding this, that all the benefits, or blessings of our salvation come through Jesus, by being "in Him" (I know, you already knew that), but seeing our election in that, at least to me, gives life to the context of Ephesians when it's speaking about the elect. Ephesians 1"3-14 now flows, and I can see whole point being made. I haven't thought this all the way through and tested in thoroughly, but it's looking like there's something here. In Ephes. 1:3-14, look at the constant emphasis of "in Christ". And consider, that what was predestined from the foundations of the world, was not God randomly picking or electing people, rather, what was predestined was the means by which believers will be delivered. The Lamb slain from the foundations of the world, elected, or chosen for this purpose. In Him, we become elect also. Read it that way, and hopefully you'll see what I'm seeing. You have a few options here, either we are "in Him" from the foundations of the world, which I do not believe is possible according to Scripture, or, it's the means of our being elect, "in Him", that is being emphasized. Remember, Paul is speaking to believers. Also remember that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, I believe that means life. That when He begins a good work in us, He will finish it, thus we are elect in Him. That's the idea I'm getting from this now. Again, remember, Paul is speaking to believers.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places *in Christ*,
4 just as He chose us *in Him* before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 *In Him* we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things *in Christ*, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--*in Him.*
11 *In Him* also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

And this is the significance of the garment, that the Garment represents that they are "in Christ".

Am I reading too much into that? The idea that we are "in Him" from the foundation s of the world doesn't sit right with me. We must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be "in Him". What say you? Should we only look at Election as something we are, or have "in Christ"? That sets boundaries to define the rest.

Dave

You will get different answers from different perspectives. It's difficult to explain, I think the reason for so much confusion.

Let's take a look at Eph. 1:4-5 from a different perspective.

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Notice the bold. We have been predestined to salvation a certain way, By Jesus Christ to Himself.

This is not who will be saved, a certain Elect group of people, but rather how we will be saved, by Jesus Christ.

This was the plan of God before the foundation of the world, that we would be saved by Jesus Christ through His perfect sacrifice for our sins.

He (God) has chosen us who would believe before He created us to be holy and without blame before Him, By Jesus Christ.


It's not about God choosing who will be saved, but rather the manner in which we will be saved.

 

[Silverhair]

@Dave G , @Silverhair, @Charlie24

Something that stood out to me and has always bothered my was that we are always elect, or chosen "in Him". That was significant beyond the way most people understand it. Over and over in Ephesians 1 that point was emphasized. I wondered if we should be reading "in Him" as "through Him". Anyways, I started reading various points and listened to a few youtube videos, not for the reason of looking for answers per say, but more for finding the right questions to ask. Sometimes our brains get locked into thought patterns and we can miss stuff. So anyways, one guy brought up an interesting point that possibly answered my question about the significance of our being chosen "in Him". This may be obvious to some of you, but I never really looked at it this way. In some ways I did, but in some ways I didn't. That idea was that Jesus Himself was elect, chosen. Not to be saved, like us, but to be the means which we are saved. His point, or the perspective this guy had opened my eyes a bit. He said they we are elect in Christ, means that "in Him" we have God's prescribed, chosen way for us to have life. It's hard to put into words so I'll use Scripture.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

1 Peter 2:6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."

Now, understanding this, that all the benefits, or blessings of our salvation come through Jesus, by being "in Him" (I know, you already knew that), but seeing our election in that, at least to me, gives life to the context of Ephesians when it's speaking about the elect. Ephesians 1"3-14 now flows, and I can see whole point being made. I haven't thought this all the way through and tested in thoroughly, but it's looking like there's something here. In Ephes. 1:3-14, look at the constant emphasis of "in Christ". And consider, that what was predestined from the foundations of the world, was not God randomly picking or electing people, rather, what was predestined was the means by which believers will be delivered. The Lamb slain from the foundations of the world, elected, or chosen for this purpose. In Him, we become elect also. Read it that way, and hopefully you'll see what I'm seeing. You have a few options here, either we are "in Him" from the foundations of the world, which I do not believe is possible according to Scripture, or, it's the means of our being elect, "in Him", that is being emphasized. Remember, Paul is speaking to believers. Also remember that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, I believe that means life. That when He begins a good work in us, He will finish it, thus we are elect in Him. That's the idea I'm getting from this now. Again, remember, Paul is speaking to believers.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places *in Christ*,
4 just as He chose us *in Him* before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 *In Him* we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things *in Christ*, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--*in Him.*
11 *In Him* also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

And this is the significance of the garment, that the Garment represents that they are "in Christ".

Am I reading too much into that? The idea that we are "in Him" from the foundation s of the world doesn't sit right with me. We must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be "in Him". What say you? Should we only look at Election as something we are, or have "in Christ"? That sets boundaries to define the rest.

Dave

You made the same point I have made on here more than once, that Christ is the Elect One and we are only elect when we are in Him. But as I am sure you will see, those of the C/R view will disagree with that.

If Paul had used the words "through Him" which is the intent of Eph 1:3-14 but he did not so we have to continue to explain what the text says.

As @Charlie24 said it is not who will be saved but how they will be saved, which is through faith in Christ Jesus.