What does this statement mean?

[Winman]

.

You are correct that one must logical have their sins remitted and righteousness imputed logical before they can obtain be alive before God.

Exactly. I am glad to see you realize this. No man can be regenerated until his sins are washed away, and no man's sins are washed away until he believes on Christ. Therefore, faith MUST precede regeneration. This is truly logical, your position is not.

However, I believe there is a difference between IMPARTED eternal life versus IMPUTED eternal life. The first is regenation while the second is justification. The first is SPIRITUAL while the second is LEGAL and POSITIONAL before God.

You were doing good, but now you resort to making up doctrine not shown in the scriptures.

Hence, regeneration = spiritual imparted life logically precedes spiritual activites (repentance and faith) the preprequisits to justification or eternal life by LEGAL delclaration. New birth produces spiritual "children" (Gr. Tekna) while justification produces legal heirs or "sons" (Gr. huioi").

Nope. You cannot be spiritually alive while you are still in your sins. The wages of sin is DEATH. Until your sins are removed you cannot be spiritually alive in any sense whatsoever.

From the human perspective The change of atttitude toward God is called repentance and faith - turning from sin to righteousness by faith in Christ. From the Divine perspective the change of attitude toward God is God giving a new heart - regeneration.

No, first the word of God tells us we are sinners and on our way to hell. We are convicted by the word. This is repentance, it is a change of view about one's self. We no longer believe we are righteous in ourselves and can merit salvation.

When we hear of Jesus dying for us we are drawn by his love for us in that he would give his son to die for us when we were yet sinners.

When the word of God tells us that if we believe on Jesus we will be saved, NOW we are enabled to trust Christ. But we are still not regenerated or spiritually alive.

Now, the moment you trust Jesus, then your sins are forgiven and you are now spiritually alive.

You cannot be regenerated for even a millionth of a second before your sins are forgiven. While you remain in your sins you are spiritually dead.

And we see how Calvinists go astray with this false belief. We see on another thread a hyper-Calvinist who believes you are born regenerated, but only believe when you hear the gospel later. This could be many years. In his view, a person can be spiritually alive for years, yet still dead in all their trespasses and sins.

The teaching that regeneration precedes faith is utterly false. You can try to wiggle around it, but I think deep inside you know better. You are making up doctrine on the spot to reconcile doctrine that simply does not work, and is not scriptural.

Good luck making yourself believe that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Exactly. I am glad to see you realize this. No man can be regenerated until his sins are washed away, and no man's sins are washed away until he believes on Christ. Therefore, faith MUST precede regeneration. This is truly logical, your position is not.


You were doing good, but now you resort to making up doctrine not shown in the scriptures.

I am not making up any new doctrine. I am just pointing out two very well established Biblical doctrines (1) Regeneration versus (2) Justification and the implications of each, where they differ and what each involves.

The former imparts life to your person while the latter imputes life to your position "in Christ" before God. They are simeltaneous in action and therefore there is no millionth of a second between the two. The former is SPIRITUAL while the latter is LEGAL. The first has to do with being a "child" of God ("tekna" "child") while the latter has to do with being a legal heir of God ("huios" - "son"). The former is quickening by the Spirit while the latter is justifying by faith.

 

[Winman]

I am not making up any new doctrine. I am just pointing out two very well established Biblical doctrines (1) Regeneration versus (2) Justification and the implications of each, where they differ and what each involves.

Care to share the scripture that shows this so-called "established" doctrine?

The former imparts life to your person while the latter imputes life to your position "in Christ" before God. They are simeltaneous in action and therefore there is no millionth of a second between the two. The former is SPIRITUAL while the latter is LEGAL. The first has to do with being a "child" of God ("tekna" "child") while the latter has to do with being a legal heir of God ("huios" - "son"). The former is quickening by the Spirit while the latter is justifying by faith.

The scriptures say you must believe to have "life" period.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

No mention of a regeneration to believe here, John says this book (John) is written that folks might believe. All that is required to believe is God's word.

There is also no mention of life before faith. This verse says that these words are written so that folks might believe, and that believing they might have life.

I could list another half dozen verses that show you must believe to have life, you cannot show even one verse that says you must have life to believe.

You may be following the "established" doctrine of Calvinism, but your doctrine has no scriptural support. You cannot show it.

If you are fine with that, what can I say? I could never believe a doctrine that is not clearly stated in scripture.

 

[Moriah]

Stop teaching falseness.

Just teaching the Bible!

There is no such teaching in the Bible.

We are sinners, who are spiritual dead and blind,

We are sinners, who are spiritually dead and blind, until we have our eyes opened by hearing the gospel, the powerful gospel that saves.

and God enables us to be even able to be saved!

God enables ALL humans who believe, after they get faith from hearing the word.

faith in Christ required, and ONLY happens when God quickens us to be in a state to do such!

God makes us alive with Christ after we believe and confess, after we call on the name of the Lord. We confess sins and know that we have to give up sins and live according to the Word of God. God saves us while we still have sins; in fact, He saves us while we work out our salvation.

 

[DHK]

God saves us while we still have sins; in fact, He saves us while we work out our salvation.

Interesting. I thought you stopped sinning after you got saved. Now you say you keep on sinning after you get saved--while you "work out your salvation"? Do you enjoy it?

 

[Moriah]

Interesting. I thought you stopped sinning after you got saved.

That is what you get for thoughting. Try to stay close to what is said, and do not make things up. Christians do stop sinning after they get saved, how else do they work out their salvation.

Now you say you keep on sinning after you get saved--while you "work out your salvation"? Do you enjoy it?

What do you mean by “keep on sinning”? Do you mean keep forever doing the same sins repeatedly, if that is what you mean no, I do not keep sinning in such a way. What do you mean do I enjoy it? You should not be enjoying sin. You should hate what is evil, until you hate what is evil. Obey God and He will reveal Himself to you.

 

[DHK]

That is what you get for thoughting. Try to stay close to what is said, and do not make things up. Christians do stop sinning after they get saved, how else do they work out their salvation.

Have you stopped sinning? Be honest. Sometimes you say you have and sometimes you say you don't. I quote you as saying you are sinless, and then you say you are not sinless, but that you are perfect and holy.
Now again you say "Christians do stop sinning after they gets saved," an admission that you are sinless. Is that not correct?

You are also taking Scripture out of context. Let's look at it.
Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
From Gray's Concise Bible Commentary:

"Work out your own salvation" means "develop" it. It had been given to them in Christ, and now they were to set themselves to the "business of the spiritual life." But to guard against the thought of personal ability or merit in the premises, they are reminded of the Divine indwelling (v. 13), by whose power it is that progressive as well as immediate sanctification is secured. The "fear and trembling" does not indicate a suspicion lest the salvation will be taken from them, but the solemn watchfulness to be exercised lest they grieve the Spirit of God (Eph 4:30).

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
--This also agrees with the above. It is God that works your salvation out. He works in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure. You must yield to his will.

What do you mean by “keep on sinning”? Do you mean keep forever doing the same sins repeatedly, if that is what you mean no, I do not keep sinning in such a way.

I was only quoting what you said. Here it is again:

God saves us while we still have sins; in fact, He saves us while we work out our salvation.

If God saves us WHILE we still have sins, then we are STILL in sin WHEN God saves us, right?

 

[Moriah]

Have you stopped sinning? Be honest. Sometimes you say you have and sometimes you say you don't.

You be honest and stop saying I say things that I do not. Tell me, have you stopped any sins for Jesus? Have you stopped any sins and do not go back to them? Not just have you not done some sins, but also have you actually stopped sins? I will tell you though, that if you say yes, I will not believe you. Your fruits tell a story of a never-ending sin life. If you would have given up even one sin, then you would know what it is like to overcome sin, and you just do not have faith in that possibility.

I quote you as saying you are sinless, and then you say you are not sinless, but that you are perfect and holy.

You never quoted me as saying I said I am sinless. Show me where I have said that.
God says I am perfect and holy, so that is what I am. Therefore, I live my life perfecting holiness out of reverence to God, see 2 Corinthians 7:11. I gave you the words of God, but you reject them. If you do not reject them, then do you not believe what God says about His children?

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Now again you say "Christians do stop sinning after they gets saved," an admission that you are sinless. Is that not correct?

Quote me where I say that I am sinless. What is in you to make you keep making up things about me that I did not say?

You are also taking Scripture out of context. Let's look at it.
Philippians 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
From Gray's Concise Bible Commentary:
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
--This also agrees with the above. It is God that works your salvation out. He works in you, both to will and to do of his good pleasure. You must yield to his will.

Ha ha ha ha Who’s words do you think a Christian is following when they obey? You have no arguments with any kind of substance.

Why did you put “From Gray’s Concise Bible Commentary”? You probably have read from so many commentaries approved by your denomination, that you have not just studied the Bible for yourself and listened to the Holy Spirit.

was only quoting what you said. Here it is again:
If God saves us WHILE we still have sins, then we are STILL in sin WHEN God saves us, right?

When a person confesses that, they are a sinner, and know what sins they have committed, and which sins they are presently in when they first confess…God can save them at any point from any point from then on. Some will have to see that for themselves that they really are serious about Jesus being Lord of their life, and they start obeying immediately, they will begin to clean out their house. There will obviously be sins not dealt with until after Jesus saves. Just as God knew how Abraham would obey and sacrifice his son…but Abraham had to see for his self that he would obey.
God who knows our hearts will give His Spirit when He accepts us. That is the Word of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Care to share the scripture that shows this so-called "established" doctrine?{/QUOTE]


If I have to share with you scriptures to prove that "regeneration" and "justification" are "established" doctrines then you are in a sad state of affairs. What about Romans 3:24-5:1 to establish Justification by faith? What about Ephesians 2:1-10 and John 3:1-11 to establish regeneration??

I think you know these are established doctrines. What you are challenging is the implications of these Doctrines that I have asserted.

I don't think you will deny that regeneration has to do with impartation of SPIRITUAL LIFE (union with God)?

You may not agree with the doctrine of justification by faith or imputed righteousness but I don't think you will say it is something I invented??

If you will accept the doctrine of imputation of righteousness as something at least as old as the Reformation and that according to that doctrine it is the LEGAL imputation and thus LEGAL declaration of justification before God then you will have to admit that I did not invent it.

If you will accept what I said so far as doctrines I did not invent, then it is just a matter of accepting the logical conclusions of such doctrines. If justification is the LEGAL position before God through IMPUTED rightousness or a FOREIGN righteousness to our own person and works but the righteousness of Christ imputed to us LEGALLY before God by faith then you will have accepted or at least recognized the premise for my conclusions. Legal justification is in response to LEGAL condemnation under the law of God. Legal condemnation brings with it a LEGAL penalty - death. Legal justification reverses that penalty from death to life - as ones LEGAL position before God.

If you accept that regeneration is not justification but two different doctrines contained within the overall unbrella term "salvation" then it is easy to see how regeneration IMPARTS spiritual life whereas justification imputes LEGAL life.

Now justifiation is the LEGAL remission of sins and LEGAL imputation of righteousness. Now, justification is due to faith and so faith must precede LEGAL remission of sins and LEGAL imputed righteousness = LEGAL eternal life.

In contrast, regeneration is IMPARTED spiritual life and IMPARTED righteousness by creation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 brings both doctrines together as one event. The term "saved" in verse 8 refers to being quickened in verse 5 as you will see quickening is there first explained by the phrase "for by grace are ye saved" and then this explanatory phrase is again repeated in verse 8:

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved....8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

There is no progressive time in being quickened from the dead. You are either dead or your are alive and being quickened by its very nature from a dead state is a completed action in time rather than a progressive prolonged action.

In verse 8 Paul uses the paraphrastic construction where he joins a perfect tense verb with a present tense linking verb. The idea is that at a particular point in time the completed action of quickening ("saved") occurred and that completed stated of quickened continues up to the present - that is the idea expressed by the perfect tense especially with the aktionzart of the term quickened. However, when joined with the present tense to be verb its continuing completed action is further emphasized.

However, this completed action in the past that continues completed and thus stands completed occurred "THROUGH" faith. Not apart from faith. Not in addition to faith but "THROUGH" faith - meaning that regeneration and faith are inseparable from each other but making "faith" inclusive of the completed action of regeneration. Hence, both IMPARTED spiritual life and IMPUTED legal life occur simeltaneous together as one completed action of being "saved."

This completed action is not to be attributed to ourselves or our works:

"Not of ourselves.......not of works lest we should boast"

This completed action is to be attributed to God alone:

"For it is a gift of God....For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus"

This completed action results in good works "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

Hence, there may be a LOGICAL order but there is no CHRONOLOGICAL order between regeneration and justification as they are completed together in the same completed action (Perfect tense).

 

[Moriah]

There is no progressive time in being quickened from the dead. You are either dead or your are alive and being quickened by its very nature from a dead state is a completed action in time rather than a progressive prolonged action.

You keep bypassing the fact that the MESSAGE has power, for it is the very words of God. It is teaching us about what is spiritual, as we have never before been taught.
We are not "quickened" until we have faith, the faith that comes AFTER we heard the message, and AFTER we were convinced, taught, and persuaded. That is what the Word of God says.

This completed action is not to be attributed to ourselves or our works:

"Not of ourselves.......not of works lest we should boast"

Works are circumcision, various ceremonial washings, observance of special days, gift offerings, sin offerings... The Bible does NOT separate the Law into categories, so many get confused when they read "not of by works." One must have knowledge about the parts of the law that God nailed to the cross. As one must realize which parts of the Law that God abolished, one must also acknowledge which parts of the Law that God did not abolish---like doing right and stop sinning!

 

[DHK]

You be honest and stop saying I say things that I do not. Tell me, have you stopped any sins for Jesus? Have you stopped any sins and do not go back to them? Not just have you not done some sins, but also have you actually stopped sins? I will tell you though, that if you say yes, I will not believe you.

You can believe what you want. Believe that the moon is made up of green cheese if you like. What you believe about me is of no consequence to me. When I got saved the Lord changed me by his grace. I became a new creature in Christ. My manner of living was changed completely.

Your fruits tell a story of a never-ending sin life. If you would have given up even one sin, then you would know what it is like to overcome sin, and you just do not have faith in that possibility.

Since you don't know me you are not qualified to make any such statement.

You never quoted me as saying I said I am sinless. Show me where I have said that.

I quoted you in this very post, or the one just previous to it.

God says I am perfect and holy, so that is what I am.

And is this also an admission to sinlessness or is it just blind faith and pure naivete. You won't explain it.

Therefore, I live my life perfecting holiness out of reverence to God, see 2 Corinthians 7:11. I gave you the words of God, but you reject them. If you do not reject them, then do you not believe what God says about His children?

I don't ever reject the Word of God. Often I reject your interpretation of the Word of God, and I often give you the reason why. Often you quote portions of the Word of God, but give no explanation, such as the phrase above. So no one knows what you are talking about. Maybe your are talking about a Hindu god. You are not very specific.

2 Corinthians 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
--No wonder you don't want to quote this verse or talk about it. You have taken it out of context AGAIN.
First, what has this verse got to do with "perfecting holiness in the fear of God."??
Second, it has to do with a specific situation which took place in the first epistle.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Aaah. This is the verse you meant. You added an extra 1 to the reference above. Is that the case?
Look carefully at the first phrase "Since we have these promises". What promises? Look back in chapter six.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
--Read the entire portion from verse 14 onward. He is speaking of separation from the world and ungodly things. Come out from among them.
And then he says:
2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
--He is not quite finished yet with the ungodliness of the world. Cleanse yourself from all that filthiness that has contaminated both your flesh and your spirit. The world can have a devastation effect on you.
"perfecting holiness in the fear of God" speaks of our sanctification in Christ. The word "perfecting" means maturity. We mature in our holy walk with Christ as we stay away from the world and fear God. It has nothing to do with perfection, per se, but with maturity, a mature walk with Christ. The word "perfect" often means "complete" or "mature." It is defined by its context. Most words are.
For example, "I am going to play catch "the ball" my grandson throws to me, has a different meaning then, "she word an evening gown to 'the ball' last night." The context gives the meaning of the word.

Quote me where I say that I am sinless. What is in you to make you keep making up things about me that I did not say?

I did quote you. Since you don't define the words you use, and explain how you use them like I just did, one can only conclude that you use them in their primary meaning. What else would you have us to believe?

Ha ha ha ha Who’s words do you think a Christian is following when they obey? You have no arguments with any kind of substance.

I explained to you what Phil.2:12,13 means. If you reject the meaning of it, there is not much I can do.

Why did you put “From Gray’s Concise Bible Commentary”? You probably have read from so many commentaries approved by your denomination, that you have not just studied the Bible for yourself and listened to the Holy Spirit.

Why did I use Gray? Because I knew you wouldn't listen to Calvin or Gill
Besides the various sources I have on different computer software, and the internet itself, I have a library of over 2,000 books that I can access. IOW I can use the wisdom that God has given to other men. Remember Paul, in his last days, asked Timothy to bring him his books, and especially the parchments. He was a well read man that in the book of Acts in one sermon quoted from a Greek poet, and in Titus he quoted from Cretian philosopher. He read other books. But you would condemn him from quoting from secular sources because Greek poetry isn't inspired literature, and neither is the philosophy of the Cretes. But those portions are now inspired aren't they?

When a person confesses that, they are a sinner, and know what sins they have committed, and which sins they are presently in when they first confess…God can save them at any point from any point from then on.

This is a false theology. "God can save them at any point...." That is not the promise of God. The promise of God is that those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ God will save at that moment. You don't believe in the promises of God. You believe in a works-based salvation.

Some will have to see that for themselves that they really are serious about Jesus being Lord of their life, and they start obeying immediately, they will begin to clean out their house.

That is not true either. This again is a false religion based on works. What God requires is that one admits he is a sinner and comes by faith to Christ and accepts his gift of salvation freely. There are no works involved as you suggest. There is no "obeying" involved. That is a false religion.

There will obviously be sins not dealt with until after Jesus saves. Just as God knew how Abraham would obey and sacrifice his son…but Abraham had to see for his self that he would obey.

Abraham was saved, "when he believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." That was long before he ever offered Isaac. Offering Isaac had nothing to do with salvation. This is more evidence of a false religion.

God who knows our hearts will give His Spirit when He accepts us. That is the Word of God.

God gives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the moment a person a believes in Christ. There is no subsequent blessing. You have described a salvation of works, something that Christianity does not teach.

 

[The Biblicist]

You keep bypassing the fact that the MESSAGE has power, for it is the very words of God. It is teaching us about what is spiritual, as we have never before been taught.
We are not "quickened" until we have faith, the faith that comes AFTER we heard the message, and AFTER we were convinced, taught, and persuaded. That is what the Word of God says.


Works are circumcision, various ceremonial washings, observance of special days, gift offerings, sin offerings... The Bible does NOT separate the Law into categories, so many get confused when they read "not of by works." One must have knowledge about the parts of the law that God nailed to the cross. As one must realize which parts of the Law that God abolished, one must also acknowledge which parts of the Law that God did not abolish---like doing right and stop sinning!

More worthless personal opinions! Why don't you deal with the scriptures and the context and with the expositional comments I place before you? I will tell you why! You are ignorant of the scriptures and have no ability to do any exposition much less respond with expositional based comments - so you spout out hot air worth nothing! I gave you expositionally based comments. YOu don't even quote the scriptures or refer to the scriptures but give us "Thus Saith Moriah" as though you were God's oracle:sleep: For one who advertises "I Love God's Word" you don't even use it in your responses nor honor it by making expositionary or exegetical based comments! Just worhtless hot air!

 

[Moriah]

Abraham was saved, "when he believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness." That was long before he ever offered Isaac. Offering Isaac had nothing to do with salvation. This is more evidence of a false religion.

I skimmed through the replies you gave to me, and this caught my eye. I might answer your other replies when I have more time, but this one just I just have to answer now, because what you say about the Word of God, and me is so pathetically wrong.

I gave an example of a person having to know something FOR THEMSELVES first, that is why I gave an example about Abraham and Isaac. Of course, you do not understand such spiritual things. As for you saying that God saved Abraham for just believing, you are hysterically incorrect.

The Call of Abram

Here we see God tells Abram to do something.

Genesis 12:1-4

The Lord had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you.
“I will make you into a great nation
And I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
And you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And whoever curses you I will curse;
And all peoples on earth
Will be blessed through you.”

SO ABRAM LEFT, AS THE LORD HAD TOLD HIM;

Now read what Paul says.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Can you see that? By faith when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, OBEYED and went, even though he did NOT KNOW WHERE HE WAS GOING.

You throw heaps of insults at me, untruths, from out of your heart. I have shown you that Abraham's faith was working with his actions.

You teach against the Word of God. For even if we do not understand or know why God tells us to do things, we are to do them.

We are to BELIEVE AND OBEY.

 

[DHK]

We are to BELIEVE AND OBEY.

There is truth there. Learn it.
He believed (was saved). Then he obeyed.

That truth is elaborated on in Romans 4:1-5. Study it.

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
He was saved.
After that it talks about Abraham's works. He was saved first.

 

[Moriah]

There is truth there. Learn it.
He believed (was saved). Then he obeyed.

That truth is elaborated on in Romans 4:1-5. Study it.

Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
He was saved.
After that it talks about Abraham's works. He was saved first.

Can you not read English? Maybe you just cannot see the Truth because you are caught in a snare.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? James 2:20

Do you know what USELESS MEANS? It does not mean it is the kind of faith that SAVES! It does NOT mean it useful for being saved!

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:17.

Do you know what DEAD MEANS? It does NOT mean ALIVE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING SAVED. IT IS DEAD.

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26.

 

[DHK]

Can you not read English? Maybe you just cannot see the Truth because you are caught in a snare.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? James 2:20

Do you know what USELESS MEANS? It does not mean it is the kind of faith that SAVES! It does NOT mean it useful for being saved!

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:17.

Do you know what DEAD MEANS? It does NOT mean ALIVE WHEN IT COMES TO BEING SAVED. IT IS DEAD.

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26.

First define dead. James 2:26 gives you a hint.
Second, define faith.

It helps if we are on the same page here.

Third, do you realize the purpose of the Book of James, its context, why it was written? That also helps. You simply can't pull these verses out of the context of the book and use them to contradict what Paul has said in Romans 4:1-5. Why did you ignore that passage?

 

[Moriah]

First define dead.

No, DHK, we do not need to watch how you twist the truth. I do not have to define dead. The faith you preach about is dead it is never alive.

James 2:26 gives you a hint.

James 2:26 gives a hint? Lol James explains it loud and clear.

Second, define faith.

No, DHK, we do not have to define faith. You cannot manipulate the truth. You preach faith without anything else, you teach people to have dead faith.

It helps if we are on the same page here.

You are trying hard to make it seem as if there is another page! There is no other page, only in false religions such as what you teach.

Third, do you realize the purpose of the Book of James, its context, why it was written? That also helps. You simply can't pull these verses out of the context of the book and use them to contradict what Paul has said in Romans 4:1-5. Why did you ignore that passage?

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

You really need to understand WHO and WHAT Peter was speaking about when he says ignorant and unstable people distort what Paul says. Peter speaks about obeying…you have distorted what Paul says. Now you try to distort what James says.

 

[DHK]

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

You really need to understand WHO and WHAT Peter was speaking about when he says ignorant and unstable people distort what Paul says. Peter speaks about obeying…you have distorted what Paul says. Now you try to distort what James says.

No I didn't distort what James said.
Here is the way the post went. Reread it.

I asked you to define "dead." You refused.
I asked you to define "faith." You refused.
I suggested you look and try and understand the context of James. You refused.
I suggested you look at how Abraham was saved as described in the epistle of Romans 4:1-5. You refused.

I didn't distort anything. You refused to look at Scripture.
Now concerning 2Pet.3:16, tell me who it applies to? Those who study the Scriptures or those who ignore the Scriptures.
It specifically says:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You remain unlearned when you refuse to study the Word.

 

[Moriah]

No I didn't distort what James said.
Here is the way the post went. Reread it.

I asked you to define "dead." You refused.
I asked you to define "faith." You refused.
I suggested you look and try and understand the context of James. You refused.
I suggested you look at how Abraham was saved as described in the epistle of Romans 4:1-5. You refused.

I didn't distort anything. You refused to look at Scripture.
Now concerning 2Pet.3:16, tell me who it applies to? Those who study the Scriptures or those who ignore the Scriptures.
It specifically says:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You remain unlearned when you refuse to study the Word.

You sound like you are out of your mind if you really think I have not studied the Bible. You are unlearned in the truth, but learned in false doctrine.

You teach a dead faith, just like James says, and you should fear what Peter says about what you do.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

................
This is a false theology. "God can save them at any point...." That is not the promise of God. ...............

GE:

How many weirdo 'Christians' does one get .....

One plus point about that is one realises to answer every one is impossible .... Thank God!