ScottEmerson
Active Member
Or just maybe they close their own eyes. God draws all men. What passage do you use when you said that God first opens their eyes? I did a search on "eyes" in the Bible and couldn't find it.
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What Dr. James P. Boyce thought about Arminians
- Thread starter By God's Grace
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ScottEmerson
Active Member
Interesting. Please supply the verse(s) where the Bible says that God comes to all men.
Thanks.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken</font>[/QUOTE]John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
John 16:8-11 "When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. "
Christ draws all men and the Holy Spirit comes to all men...unless we're going to read kosmos as "the elect," which we cannot in good conscience do.
Ray Berrian
New Member
John 6:44 . . . God is not saying that only His chosen few will be saved; rather He is saying that no one would come to Christ except for His convicting and convincing ministry. The chosen few concept was only a ' spiritual growing pain' of your prized, priest, John Calvin.
John 6:44 is a few that you have not fully reckoned with. It says,
NAU John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
The last part of the verse cannot be omitted. It clearly says, "I will raise him up on the last day." The "him" in question is the one whom the Father draws. Therefore, if the Father draws someone, that someone will be raised up at the last day. Therefore, it appears on the basis of Christ's words that you are either a Calvinist or a universalist. (A slight exaggeration).
If you argue that the Father draws all men, then you must argue that all men will be raised up at the last day. There is simply no way around this.
But then most of your persuasion avoid John 6 like the plague ...
Still waiting for that verse that shows election to be the result of belief ... How long will I have to wait?
[ June 11, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
The following verse clarifies this by saying "Therefore, everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me". People take this to mean "whoever is called WILL come!". "Are all saved? No, so it's only the elect who are called". But notice the verse says "heard AND learned". It's not those who are "taught" or just hear who are justified. (James 1:22-25).
The people who are raised at the last day are those who were drawn AND come. While any not called would not come, there is nothing to say that there are not those who are called and do not come. (Matt. 20:16)
The key to this passage is the references also in v.45 to several Old Testament passages prophesying God's outpouring of His Spirit on "all flesh" (Is.54:13, Jer.31:34, Micah 4:2). Before, God had only called Israel, But now, Israel was "hardened" as Romans 9 teaches, so that's why they (who should have been first in heralding the Messiah) were not being called then. Christ was beginning His following with the disciples, and no one could become apart of this group unless called, but this doesn't say that only certain (and relatively few at that) people would ever be called when salvation was opened up after His death and resurrection. The Father would be calling everyone then, as His convicting Spirit would be poured out on all.
The people who are raised at the last day are those who were drawn AND come. While any not called would not come, there is nothing to say that there are not those who are called and do not come. (Matt. 20:16)
The key to this passage is the references also in v.45 to several Old Testament passages prophesying God's outpouring of His Spirit on "all flesh" (Is.54:13, Jer.31:34, Micah 4:2). Before, God had only called Israel, But now, Israel was "hardened" as Romans 9 teaches, so that's why they (who should have been first in heralding the Messiah) were not being called then. Christ was beginning His following with the disciples, and no one could become apart of this group unless called, but this doesn't say that only certain (and relatively few at that) people would ever be called when salvation was opened up after His death and resurrection. The Father would be calling everyone then, as His convicting Spirit would be poured out on all.
KenH
Well-Known Member
As I pointed out before the word "men" is not in the Greek of John 12:32. "All" must be determined by the rest of Scripture, "comparing Scripture with Scripture". You think it doesn't matter that "men" is not in the Greek, I think it does. We will simply have to agree to disagree on that verse.
In John 16, I do not see where it says the Holy Spirit comes to all men; it simply says He will come. Again I think you are broad-brushing the use of terms.
(Luke 2:1 NKJV) And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.
For example, to be consistent with your previous usage of words, I would think you believe that world in the verse above includes everyone living at that time, the Mongolians, the Chinese, the Native Americans, the Incas, etc. Or do you actually understand that words must be defined by their context? If you do so in Luke 2:1, then you must also do so elsewhere to be consistent.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
[ June 11, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
KenH
Well-Known Member
Well, Scott, we know that it is God who opens the elect's heart, not the elect themselves.
(Acts 16:14 NKJV) Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.
As for eyes...
(Luke 19:42 NKJV) saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
(John 12:37-40 NKJV) But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, {38} that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" {39} Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: {40} "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
(Acts 26:17-18 NKJV) 'I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, {18} 'to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
(Rom 11:8 NKJV) Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
(Eph 1:17-18 NKJV) that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, {18} the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
God opens hearts and hardens hearts, God opens eyes and closes eyes. Man comes into the world with a hard heart(you do agree with this right?) and God uses that hardness of heart for His purposes. Man comes into this world with his eyes closed to the truth(you do agree with this right?) and God uses that blindness for His purposes. God is absolutely sovereign and man is absolutely morally responsible.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
Ray Berrian
New Member
Larry said, 'How long will I have to wait?' (as to a verse that says that election is determined by belief)
Ray said, 'Read John 3:16. When a person believes he or she becomes one of the elect, one of the people of God. Pastor Larry, were you elected without believing in Jesus?'
Ray said, 'Read John 3:16. When a person believes he or she becomes one of the elect, one of the people of God. Pastor Larry, were you elected without believing in Jesus?'
KenH
Well-Known Member
I hope you don't mind if I jump in.
(Rom 9:11-13 NKJV) (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), {12} it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." {13} As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
(John 5:21 NKJV) "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
One redeemed by Christ's blood,
Ken
[ June 11, 2002, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
No one disputed this. But you have (unsurprisingly) ignored the point of v. 44. All the Father draws will be raised up at the last day. How do you get from "The Father draws all men" to "only that part of the drawn who "freely" respond get raised up"? It is simply inconsistent to read the verse that way.
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As moderator, let's start winding this down. I will shut it down later today. It's getting too long.
Which word in 3:16 is "elect"? I don't see that word in there. I asked for a reference that teaches that election is the result of belief. 3:16 talks of belief but says nothing of elect.
Yes. But I did not believe without being elected (chosen). Belief always follows election; it is never the other way around.
That's just it. It doesn't say "all who are drawn will be raised up". The point (which I was addressing) is "no one can come unless drawn". Those whocome are the ones who will be raised. Of course, it's theoretically possible for all drawn to be raised (assuming all drawn will come) but not necessarily. (Especially when He adds "heard AND learned").
No, on one hand, you all are insisting that "hardening" (or "blinding") is an active decree of God, yet now, you seem to be suggesting it is just their preexisting state which God "uses". But hardening is described as an action of God to those morally neutral ("lump of clay" or "before they were born and had done any wrong"), and since individual men are born blind and hardened, it would not be necessary to "blind" or "harden" them just to condemn ("reprobate") them. They are condemned already.
It is groups that God "blinds" or "hardens" (in this case, Israel, to prepare the way for the Gospel to the world)), and individuals who are held accountable.
This seems even to be hinted by Rom.9:22-- despite wanting to show His wrath and power, God "endures" with "much longsuffering" the individuals within this "hardened" group.
(Hardening does happen to certain individuals when they cross a certain line of sin and are "given over" to their specific sins, or certain special cases such as Pharaoh, which was also for a specific purpose. Individual condemnation to Hell is not even discussed in these passages.)
[ June 12, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
I don't understand how you can say this. This seems so clear as to be glaring. "No one can come unless teh Father draws him and I will raise him up at the last day." Who do you think the "him" is? In the context, it can only be one person ... the one who was drawn. V. 45 only strengthens this: Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes.
I just don't see how you maintain a distinction here.
He who was both drawn AND comes.
AND comes. It can theoretically be all who are drawn, but if not all drawn come, then there is such a distinction.
Once again, the context is the Spirit being poured on all flesh. At that time, only a few were being called into the His following (the Church), but after His death, all would be called to the Body of Christ (which is those who would be saved by Him), but only a few chosen (Matt. 20:16-- because not all drawn respond).
Ray Berrian
New Member
Eric,
Your comments are noted. ' . . . God's longsuffering . . . ' toward sinners. Why was He patient toward them, if in eternity past He had plans for their endless, burning fate? Humm.
Your comments are noted. ' . . . God's longsuffering . . . ' toward sinners. Why was He patient toward them, if in eternity past He had plans for their endless, burning fate? Humm.
He who was both drawn AND comes. </font>[/QUOTE]Why do you assume that one drawn will not come? That is a false assumption. In the context (vv. 37 and 45), all who are drawn do come. This is a false dichotomy.