Originally posted by KenH:
1) I disagree. In John chapter 6 Jesus is talking to thousands of people, not just the apostles. What is applicable to one of the thousands is applicable to all of the thousands.
By this logic Ken you would have to believe that the thousands in his audience were "given to Christ by the Father." Of course you don't believe that. You believe "the elect" are given to Christ. Is all of Christ's audience elect? No, so your argument is not applicable to me anymore than it is to you. I'm not arguing that Jesus is not speaking to the entire audience, I'm arguing, just like you do, that there are only certain people who have been enabled from that audience to come to Christ. The question is: to whom is he refering? You believe it is those God as individually elected to beleive and be saved. I believe it is those God has given to Christ to be trained and sent out to preach the gospel to the world. You have yet to address this because you are attacking a straw man which ironically is an attack upon your own interpretation of this text as well.
2) The elect were given to Jesus before this world began.
How does that relate to my statement: "Not all believers are "given to Jesus" while he was in the flesh. That is to be trained by him personally. This was reserved for apostles." You assume once again that "those given by the Father" are in reference to all saved people, but I'm arguing that not all saved people were "given to Christ" in the way this text obviously means.
Granted, I can see how one might take the words "given to Christ" and take that to mean every single person who is ever saved was given to Christ by the Father in a spiritual sense. But, what I'm asking you to do Ken is consider the possiblity that Christ is not speaking in a universal spiritual sense, but in a literal down to earth manner. He could be explaining, "Only those the Father has given to me to train and send out from Israel can come to me, it has not been granted for everyone of you to come but only those who are drawn by the Father for this special task. The rest of you are blinded, deafened and hardened for a time. All of those who have been given will come because God has chosen them to be his mouthpiece to the world."
Ken, if you are objective and honest with this passage in light of the whole counsel of God's word I think you'll see that is not only a possible translation but the most likely.
3) Hardened or unable - same result. Truthfully, I do not understand this focus you have on hardening.
I think Yelsew answered this well, but let me indulge a bit more if I may.
I agree there is the same result, which is why I don't agree with Total Depravity. Both Hardening and Total Depravity teachings claim that they are reason that man doesn't believe, see, hear or understand. Hardening is clearly taught throughout scripture, Total depravity is purely a Calvinistic dogma created to complete a logical but erroneous system of thought.
Total Depravity teaches man is unable from birth to see hear, understand and believe because of the effects of the Fall which are imputed by God's plan.
Hardening teaches that man BECOMES unable because of their continuous rebellion to God's ways eventhough man fully understood what God demanded of him.
Look at Acts 28:24:
Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. 25 Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers 26 when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted--and I would heal them.' 28 Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"
Notice what I highlighted here. Its says, "OTHERWISE" which shows that had Israel not been hardened they "might see, hear, understand and be converted."
What about Total Depravity? If Israel was Totally depraved why would God harden them? Why make a blind man blinder? And if they weren't hardened they were still Total Depraved, right? So this sentence would be incorrect if TD was true. Plus look at what it says in the last verse about the Gentiles. "They will Listen." If they were Total Depraved and unable to see, hear, understand just like Israel, why would Paul think he had any better hope persuading them? It just doesn't fit.
4) Those who are punished in hell have not been enabled. Those who are go to heaven are enabled.
Again, you assume that these words a merely about salvation. Do you deny that this statment is true:
The Bible also teaches that from the Jews God reserved a remnant who were not hardened (Romans 10-11). So we know in Jesus' audience there were those who were being hardened (unable) and those who were the remnant (enabled).
I think you must acknowledge that it is true. You must argue that it doesn't relate to John 6 which I think is impossible to do in light of the given texts.
