What exactly happened on the Cross?

[Yelsew]

When standing before almighty God, the judge of all creation, you with your unforgiven sin, and me with no sins accounted against me, we'll see who is correct. Can you risk that kind of scrutiny?

 

[russell55]

Yelsew,

How do you explain the scripture I posted that ties forgiveness for sins to the cross?

Even the scripture from 1st John that you like to quote ties the forgiveness we recieve to the Advocate we have--the very Advocate who propitiated our sins.

Do we need to confess our sins? Of course. But the forgiveness we receive when we confess is grounded in what was accomplished for us at the cross, and the advocacy of the one who propitiated the wrath of God in our place.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by russell55:
Yelsew,

How do you explain the scripture I posted that ties forgiveness for sins to the cross?

Even the scripture from 1st John that you like to quote ties the forgiveness we recieve to the Advocate we have--the very Advocate who propitiated our sins.

Do we need to confess our sins? Of course. But the forgiveness we receive when we confess is grounded in what was accomplished for us at the cross, and the advocacy of the one who propitiated the wrath of God in our place.

Then by all means, go ahead and sin, you're covered! Eat, drink, and make merry, for tomorrow we die! Our sins are already forgiven, so if we sin we need not worry, the debt has already been paid! Go murder those that persecute you, your sins are already paid for. Go out and have a sexually immoral good time, your sins are already paid for! If you are a man go have sexual relations with a man, your sins are already forgiven. ETC., ETC., ETC.!

 

[Pastor Larry]

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!! How shall we who died to sin continue to live in it??

 

[russell55]

Then by all means, go ahead and sin, you're covered! Eat, drink, and make merry, for tomorrow we die! Our sins are already forgiven, so if we sin we need not worry, the debt has already been paid! Go murder those that persecute you, your sins are already paid for. Go out and have a sexually immoral good time, your sins are already paid for! If you are a man go have sexual relations with a man, your sins are already forgiven. ETC., ETC., ETC.!

I asked you how you explained the scripture that ties forgiveness to the cross and this is your response? Reading between the lines it you seem to be admitting that scripture certainly seems to tie forgiveness to the cross, but forgiveness really can't be tied to the cross, because then people would go out and sin all the more, for their sins are already forgiven. Is this what you mean?

 

[russell55]

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be!! How shall we who died to sin continue to live in it??

Exactly what I was thinking Pastor Larry. Paul himself anticipates that some will have the exact response that Yelsew did to the news that Christ's death saves us from God's wrath and reconciles us to Him.

 

[Yelsew]

I'm Saying that the Atonement for sins, is not forgiveness for sins we commit after we have assurance of Salvation. Atonement means that we do not die in our sins, because God accepted Jesus' death as payment of the sins of the world. We must still confess our sins in order to be forgiven of our sins.

You go before the Judgment throne with your cloak of atonement carrying your unforgiven sins on your blemished garment. I'll go before the judgment throne fully forgiven for my confessed sins in a spotless white garment. Who wins the trip to the lake?

 

[russell55]

I confess the sins I become aware of, but I also know that even if I should forget one, it will not be held against me, for God has forgiven me ALL my transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against me and which was hostile to me; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

What about you, Yelsew? What if you forget one, or are unaware of one or die before you can confess? Doesn't Colossians 2 give you assurance that there is still nothing on your account to be held against you? That there is still nothing spotting your robe, since you are not clothed in your own righteousness, but Christ's?

 

[Yelsew]

The Holy Spirit does not let me forget what I've done. It "nags" me, bringing sins to my conscious mind until I do confess, and receive forgiveness.

 

[russell55]

It "nags" me, bringing sins to my conscious mind until I do confess

And what if, while the Holy Spirit is in the process of nagging you, but before you actually confess, you are killed in a car accident?

You never did tell me what it means when it says that God has in Christ "forgiven all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." What does that mean? Why have you not explained any of the scripture that seems to be opposed to what you are saying?

 

[Yelsew]

Russell55 if what you are questioning is true, why did the beloved Apostle tell us to confess our sins? 1 John 1:9&10

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

I must confess that I feel terrible for you. I don't say this to be offensive or demeaning at all! But the bondage that you are in because of your inaccurate theology must be heavier then 1 billion tons.

I hope that those chains are broken so that you can experience freedom (not to sin, but from guilt and fear).

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[russell55]

Russell55 if what you are questioning is true, why did the beloved Apostle tell us to confess our sins? 1 John 1:9&10

Because from our side of things, we are in a process of becoming in practice what we already are "in Christ". Owning up to our sins is part of the process. Each time we confess, we have a fresh experience of the forgiveness of God that is already accomplished in Christ Jesus, a fresh experience of His cleansing from unrighteousness, even though we have already been counted as righteous in Christ.

You just need to read the paragraph as a whole to see that this:

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He himself is the propitiation for our sins...

When we sin, Christ advocates on our behalf. The grounds He has to do that is that He has already propitiated our sins so God is already reconciled to us through Christ's work.

You still haven't explained what it means when it says that God has in Christ "forgiven all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

 

[wolldog]

Yelsew,
You said the following in a previous post:

I'm Saying that the Atonement for sins, is not forgiveness for sins we commit after we have assurance of Salvation. Atonement means that we do not die in our sins, because God accepted Jesus' death as payment of the sins of the world. We must still confess our sins in order to be forgiven of our sins.

You clearly say in this post that confession is forgiveness. Well, without complete forgiveness of sins there is still a darkness over us that God will see when we face judgement. Therefore, you are saying that God allows some with unforgiven sins to enter a place with no sin, which is totally unbiblical. Also, it appears to me that when you say that it is the confession of the transgressor that leads to the salvation, not the atoning work of Christ, I am lead to believe that you are arguing for a works based salvation. This is only for the fact that if you confess, it is you doing all the work, Jesus did in fact die but, my saying that I believe is the actual saving factor. If I am wrong please correct me.

To the glory of God alone,

Wolldog

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by The Archangel:
Yelsew,

I must confess that I feel terrible for you. I don't say this to be offensive or demeaning at all! But the bondage that you are in because of your inaccurate theology must be heavier then 1 billion tons.

I hope that those chains are broken so that you can experience freedom (not to sin, but from guilt and fear).

Blessings,

Archangel

What specifically causes you distress on my part? Please don't repeat that it is "my theology", that is not helpful in the least.

 

[The Archangel]

First of all, welcome wolldog. It is nice to see you on the boards.

Yelsew,

What specifically causes you distress on my part? Please don't repeat that it is "my theology", that is not helpful in the least.

Ok, you're right--my posting was vague. So, in an effort to be more specific...

1. You seem to live under a dark cloud of worry regarding forgiveness. You say that Jesus died for you BUT that you need to confess. Many, including myself, have raised this question: "What happens if you sin and don't have opportunity to confess and happen to die? Do you go to heaven or to hell?"

It would seem to me that if your sins are paid for on the cross BUT not forgiven until you ask, then you are not forgiven. Therefore, if you die with an unconfessed sin, then you'll go to hell.

2. Your understanding of the atonement is flawed. Christ did something on the cross. That something was to pay for the sins of the elect (whether election is based on predestination or foreknowledge is unimportant at this point).

Once those sins are paid for, God cannot, if He is just, require a second payment. Once that forgivness is applied to you at conversion, all (not some) or your sins are forgiven based on Christ's complete and finished work on the cross.

3. Your flawed understanding of the atonement leaves no room for Christ's work in practical living. If you hold to your view, you must live in constant fear of dying with an unconfessed sin which will send you to hell. That sin can be known or unknown. Either way, hell is your destination.

4. The work of Christ is a once-for-all-time event. Forgivness is not passed on a piece-meal basis. It is not as if you ask for forgivness for a particular sin and God grants that forgivness but leaves all the others unforgiven.

5. The OT sacrificial system shows us that tangible events happen in the act of atonement. The lamb is slain and the scapegoat is sent out. Christ is both our lamb and our scapegoat. Therefore, the sins are removed from us (scapegoat) and the penalty is paid for (sacrificial lamb).

I hope this is less vague. I'd be happy to discuss further.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

Archangel,

You said "Ok, you're right--my posting was vague. So, in an effort to be more specific..."

1. You seem to live under a dark cloud of worry regarding forgiveness. You say that Jesus died for you BUT that you need to confess. Many, including myself, have raised this question: "What happens if you sin and don't have opportunity to confess and happen to die? Do you go to heaven or to hell?"

If I were not already assured of salvation I would be worried. But since I am saved, if I sin and the die before confession, my sin will show up in the judgment of my life, but being that I have the mark of Jesus in my spirit (belief) I do not lose the eternal life that every believer in Jesus has. Jesus acts as my advocate before the judgment throne of God. Jesus claims me, the father will not cast me out.

It would seem to me that if your sins are paid for on the cross BUT not forgiven until you ask, then you are not forgiven. Therefore, if you die with an unconfessed sin, then you'll go to hell.

No, like Jesus said, "believe in me and you shall eternal life. Stop there. He did not say, "if you believe in me and have all your sins confessed and forgiven, you will have eternal life."

I point out that the question posed was "How are sins forgiven" To which I responded by Confession.

2. Your understanding of the atonement is flawed. Christ did something on the cross. That something was to pay for the sins of the elect (whether election is based on predestination or foreknowledge is unimportant at this point).

Once those sins are paid for, God cannot, if He is just, require a second payment. Once that forgivness is applied to you at conversion, all (not some) or your sins are forgiven based on Christ's complete and finished work on the cross.

This concept is flawed. Jesus died on the Cross for all mankind, not just for the elect!

First, Confession of sins is not a form of payment for sins. There is but one acceptable payment for sins and that is death, Rom 6:23 "for the wages of sin is death"

Second, Conversion is a matter of belief. It is the transformation from unbeliever to believer.

Third, Forgiveness is a matter of Confession. One must confess their sins in order to be forgiven them.

Fourth, Salvation is not based on sins forgiven, but rather, in whom one believes. John 3:16

Fifth, Jesus' death on the cross is payment in full (restitution) for the sins of the world, thus relieving mankind of the liability of restitution (DEATH) for sinning. However, Jesus' death on the cross does not forgive the sins of each person in the world, else there would be nothing to constrain us from continuing in sin with gusto! Remember, Salvation is not based on holiness, but rather on belief. Once we come to believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins which we are then to confess so that we can be forgiven and restored to righteousness. (kind of like washing dirty dishes, sin dirties them confession and forgiveness makes them clean again.)

I went on to say that Atonement is not equal to forgiveness. Atonement (restitution) is paying the penalty for sin, while not forgiving the sin. That is why John told us "If we (believers) confess our sins, He (Jesus) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If Jesus has already forgiven our sins by Atonement, then there is no reason to confess and receive cleansing. But Atonement is not forgiveness

atonement, n.
1. satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. (sometimes cap.) Theol. the doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
3. Christian Science. the experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ.
4. Archaic. reconciliation; agreement.

Forgiveness carries with it some of what Atonement does, but Atonement is "the payment for something", where forgiveness is the "release from liability for something". Therefore they are not the same.

3. Your flawed understanding of the atonement leaves no room for Christ's work in practical living. If you hold to your view, you must live in constant fear of dying with an unconfessed sin which will send you to hell. That sin can be known or unknown. Either way, hell is your destination.

Pretty strong judgment, sir. But totally flawed because sin is not what sends one to hell, unbelief is what sends one to hell.

4. The work of Christ is a once-for-all-time event. Forgivness is not passed on a piece-meal basis. It is not as if you ask for forgivness for a particular sin and God grants that forgivness but leaves all the others unforgiven.

Yes, the work that the Christ Completed on the cross is atonement (restitution, Payment for) for the sins of the World, and not forgiveness (releasing from Liability) for them.

5. The OT sacrificial system shows us that tangible events happen in the act of atonement. The lamb is slain and the scapegoat is sent out. Christ is both our lamb and our scapegoat. Therefore, the sins are removed from us (scapegoat) and the penalty is paid for (sacrificial lamb).

We are not under the OT sacrificial system. Besides, we have New Testament documented evidence of the Lamb of God, but none whatsoever of the scapegoat! Could it be that you are wrong?

I hope this is less vague. I'd be happy to discuss further.

I hope that I have clarified to you the truth of scripture so that you will refrain from judging and condemning others in the future. That is not your role!
I hope that you can see there is a NEED to confess sins that has no bearing on ones eternal life. It is by sinning that we destroy our righteousness. It is by confession of sin that we receive forgiveness and cleansing from all unrighteousness.

 

[wolldog]

Yelsew,
In your last post, you listed a dictionary entry in which you said that atonement is "Christian Science. the experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ" Doesn't that say that when you are atoned for, you are in unity with God? Now, God hates sin and cannot let himself become less holy by letting you become one with Him with unforgiven sins. How then can you only be atoned for and not forgiven. In your theory, this is possible, so please tell me how.

Forgiveness carries with it some of what Atonement does, but Atonement is "the payment for something", where forgiveness is the "release from liability for something". Therefore they are not the same.

Tell me, if you owe a friend of mine a great deal of money, but you can't pay it, and I pay for you, are you still held accountable for the debt?
No, my atonement (payment for something) automatically granted you forgiveness (release from liability for something). Do tell me if I am incorrect.

You also keep saying that you can enter heaven with unconfessed sins. I find this incorrect because if you think, this cannot be. If someone sins against your or offends you, you don't generally want to even associate yourself with them unless you have forgiven them. How much worse would it be with God? God is holy and purely holy and as such, cannot even look upon sin without utter disgust. How then can he allow you, with unconfessed sin to enter into His sanctuary?

Soli Deo Gloria,

Wolldog

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

First of all, thank you for your indepth post. I appreciated the point-by-point response.

If I were not already assured of salvation I would be worried. But since I am saved, if I sin and the die before confession, my sin will show up in the judgment of my life, but being that I have the mark of Jesus in my spirit (belief) I do not lose the eternal life that every believer in Jesus has. Jesus acts as my advocate before the judgment throne of God. Jesus claims me, the father will not cast me out.

This is contradictory. You cannot be forgiven and yet still have sin in your life. If you do have sin in your life (" if I sin and the die before confession, my sin will show up in the judgment of my life ") you cannot be forgiven. If you appear before God with even one sin He cannot accept you. His great and terrible disdain for sin is that strong.

No, like Jesus said, "believe in me and you shall eternal life. Stop there. He did not say, "if you believe in me and have all your sins confessed and forgiven, you will have eternal life."

Ok, we agree here. However, this statement contradicts your prior statement. If you believe in Him, you are forgiven. There is no "If you believe in Him, you are forgiven BUT..." It doesn't work that way.

I point out that the question posed was "How are sins forgiven" To which I responded by Confession.

Again, I'm not entirely sure that you understood me. But, I'll leave this 'till later.

This concept is flawed. Jesus died on the Cross for all mankind, not just for the elect!

Well, that's the real issue now isn't it? If Jesus died to pay the sin-penalty for all mankind, then all mankind will be saved. I'm pretty sure that you are not advocating universalism. However, that is what your position will lead to in the end.

First, Confession of sins is not a form of payment for sins. There is but one acceptable payment for sins and that is death, Rom 6:23 "for the wages of sin is death"

Second, Conversion is a matter of belief. It is the transformation from unbeliever to believer.

No real arguement there. I agree.

This is where it gets tricky, however you write:

First, Confession of sins is not a form of payment for sins. There is but one acceptable payment for sins and that is death, Rom 6:23 "for the wages of sin is death"

Third, Forgiveness is a matter of Confession. One must confess their sins in order to be forgiven them.

These statements are contradictory. I see what you are saying. However, you assume a false dichotomy. Forgivness is based on Christ's work, not on our confession.

Fourth, Salvation is not based on sins forgiven, but rather, in whom one believes. John 3:16

Wrong. Salvation must be based on forginess of sin. Why? God cannot forgive sin. He must, if He is to be a just God, require a payment.

Again, our forgivness is based on the payment of another, namely Christ.

Fifth, Jesus' death on the cross is payment in full (restitution) for the sins of the world, thus relieving mankind of the liability of restitution (DEATH) for sinning.

Wrong. This is universalism.

However, Jesus' death on the cross does not forgive the sins of each person in the world. . .

Wrong. If Jesus' death on the cross does not forgive the sins of anyone, then He was a failure. After all He said, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life--a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45).

Remember, Salvation is not based on holiness, but rather on belief. Once we come to believe in Jesus, the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins which we are then to confess so that we can be forgiven and restored to righteousness. (kind of like washing dirty dishes, sin dirties them confession and forgiveness makes them clean again.)

Don't take this as derogatory....please, but this is an extreemly elementary understanding of the atonement. In the end, it is a wrong understanding. (I'm not saying that it has an impact on your salvation--I'm sure that you do beleive in Christ--but your understanding is not based in scripture).

Forgiveness carries with it some of what Atonement does, but Atonement is "the payment for something", where forgiveness is the "release from liability for something". Therefore they are not the same.

If the sin on our account is paid for, then what liability is there? Does God require a double payment? If so, He is unjust--and that cannot be the case.

Yes, the work that the Christ Completed on the cross is atonement (restitution, Payment for) for the sins of the World, and not forgiveness (releasing from Liability) for them.

Again, you are assuming a false dichotomy that Scripture never teaches.

We are not under the OT sacrificial system. Besides, we have New Testament documented evidence of the Lamb of God, but none whatsoever of the scapegoat! Could it be that you are wrong?

No, I am not wrong in the least. Could it be that you are the one who is mistaken because you don't look at Christ's work in the light of the whole scripture? The latter is the case rather than the former.

I hope that I have clarified to you the truth of scripture so that you will refrain from judging and condemning others in the future.

OH GOOD GREIF! Where did this come from. You do not have the corner on the "Truth of Scripture" department. Your lack of understanding a "Whole Bible Theology" shows that this is the case.

I hope that you can see there is a NEED to confess sins that has no bearing on ones eternal life

What? You said that it did earlier.

It is by sinning that we destroy our righteousness. It is by confession of sin that we receive forgiveness and cleansing from all unrighteousness

Ok, first of all, it is not "Our Righteousness." As the Bible says, "All of our righeousness are as filthy rags." It is only by the imputation of Christ's righteousness that we can be considered righteous.

You are putting undue weight on 1 John 1:9. You are excluding almost all other passages in scripture talking about the completeness of Christ's work and the application of that work to you.

Now, you are seeming to get a bit "snotty" lately. I hope that you are OK. I assure you, I have no desire to become mean to you or anything else like that. I am concerned, however, that your understanding of Scripture, particularly in the area of Atonement Theology, is elementary and/or sorely lacking.

I am not writing these posts to mock you or to belittle you. I am writing to correct my brother in righteousness. If you continue to talk with me, I hope that you will see my teaching in that light.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Wolldog, Yelsew, et al.

Tell me, if you owe a friend of mine a great deal of money, but you can't pay it, and I pay for you, are you still held accountable for the debt?
No, my atonement (payment for something) automatically granted you forgiveness (release from liability for something). Do tell me if I am incorrect.

Actually, this is a great analogy. Thank you Wolldog.

If someone sins against your or offends you, you don't generally want to even associate yourself with them unless you have forgiven them. How much worse would it be with God? God is holy and purely holy and as such, cannot even look upon sin without utter disgust. How then can he allow you, with unconfessed sin to enter into His sanctuary?

Another good point, Wolldog.

Blessings,

Archangel