What exactly happened on the Cross?

[Aki]

what exactly happened on the cross?

well, Christ paid for the sins of all men. the wages of sin is death, and Jesus Christ recieved that death for everyone's sin - once and for all!

this does not, however, gets a man rigtheous in God's sight. for that to happen, imputation of Christ's rigtheousness is necessary for each soul to recieve. otherwise, a soul remains unacceptable to God the Father.

those who believe are the ones to be justified.

come judgement, God will not recall the sins of unbelievers and condemn them for such. indeed, Christ already paid for those sins and to condemn them once more for their sins would mean that Christ's death was not as complete as planned!

however, the book of works will be opened, and this is not to find the sins of those who did not believe. rather, this is to prove to the unbelievers that all their works will not get them acceptable to God. it is a good thing to takes ephesians 2:8-9 and rev. 20 side by side. in ephesians, it is not of works but of grace. for those who do not believe, the only resort they have is their works to gain salvation. so then at the judgment God will prove to them that they do not pass! again, the opening of the book of works is not to review the sins of the unbelievers, but to show them that their works to gain salvation are not enough for them to be justified and acceptable to God, as would have been should they have believed!

hi to you all

 

[wolldog]

Aki,

I would like to respectfully disagree with you.

well, Christ paid for the sins of all men. the wages of sin is death, and Jesus Christ recieved that death for everyone's sin - once and for all!

I would say that Christ died once for all, but only for the sins of the elect. Now whether He forsaw those who would turn to Him willingly, or He chose them and we don't have a choice is irrelevant at this point. If you say that Christ died for the sins of all people, tnan all people are atoned for and have the forgiveness of sins and can therefore, enter heaven.

I would however say that the death of Christ is infinite in worth, but also in the reverse, one sin is also infinite in worth. The same still takes effect though, if He died for all, than all are paid for and do not have to pay a punishment.

Soli Deo Gloria

wolldog

 

[Yelsew]

Tell me, if you owe a friend of mine a great deal of money, but you can't pay it, and I pay for you, are you still held accountable for the debt?
No, my atonement (payment for something) automatically granted you forgiveness (release from liability for something). Do tell me if I am incorrect.

Though my sins have been atoned, my sinning continues! And so does yours! The Apostle John said, "If we say we have no sin, we make God a Liar" Nothing has been changed in mankind from pre-atonement to post-atonement, except that I am no longer held accountable for sins I have not personally committed!

The atonement of debt of which you speak happened 2000 years ago, a hundred generations past. And though the Atonement was a once, for all Atonement, there was no condition placed on mankind, by that atonement! That is, mankind is not required to believe in atonement, to have it. Mankind is not required to believe in the one who atoned for sin, to have it. Man is not required to repent from sinning to have atonement. So, the condition of man remains the same. Mankind continues to sin, and it is believed by some that this sinning is also atoned for.

During this 2000 years since Atonement, Grace has, and continues to abound. Does the presence of grace and the fact of atonement negate confession of sin? This, after all, is the question for this topic.

Some have stated that because the atonement covers all sins, confession of current sins committed is not needed thus negating the Apostle John's declaration of God's longsuffering patience, (1 John 1:9,10) that if we confess, he is faithful to forgive, and that forgiveness cleanses from unrighteousness. God's patience is a factor of Grace. Granted, John was writing to the Church comprised of believers in Jesus. I believe this is the important distinction between believers and unbelievers. The believer has an advocate to whom they can confess and receive forgiveness and cleansing. The unbeliever has no such advocate, therefore the unbeliever does not know that confession and forgiveness is available to them. The unbeliever does not know about atonement. Hence the reason for evangelism!

When one becomes a believer, the full benefit of the atonement is realized, because not only does the atonement become effective to the believer, but the one who atones saves the believer through faith. Then John's statement that if we confess our sins, we receive forgiveness and cleansing that is paramount to the negation of the sin nature because it is difficult to continue confessing the same sins over and over. Thus repentance from sinning becomes effective in changing the believer from sinner to saint.

With no equivocation I state that man is not the force in his own salvation! All the work of Salvation has already been completed by Jesus. The only thing that man can do is accept what the Christ has done, or reject, either actively or passively, the salvation afforded him by the Christ.

 

[russell55]

That is, mankind is not required to believe in atonement, to have it. Mankind is not required to believe in the one who atoned for sin, to have it. Man is not required to repent from sinning to have atonement. So, the condition of man remains the same.

Interesting.....

I suppose this means Paul is wrong then when He say God presented Christ as a propitiatory (or atoning) sacrifice THROUGH FAITH.

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

The atonement of debt of which you speak happened 2000 years ago, a hundred generations past. And though the Atonement was a once, for all Atonement, there was no condition placed on mankind, by that atonement! That is, mankind is not required to believe in atonement, to have it. Mankind is not required to believe in the one who atoned for sin, to have it. Man is not required to repent from sinning to have atonement. So, the condition of man remains the same. Mankind continues to sin, and it is believed by some that this sinning is also atoned for.

Ok...Now I question your salvation. I hope this paragraph is hyperbolic in nature.

The truth of the matter is this:

1. You are required to beleive in Christ in order for your sins to be forgiven (ie. Have their sins atoned for)

2. You are required to repent (stop sinning).

Whether a Calvinist or an Arminian, these points should be the same.

If, and I hope this is a big if, your paragraph that I quoted above is what you realy meant to say, then you are deep into a heresy. And, I must, sadly, question whether you are saved.

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

The Archangel

Yelsew,

The atonement of debt of which you speak happened 2000 years ago, a hundred generations past. And though the Atonement was a once, for all Atonement, there was no condition placed on mankind, by that atonement! That is, mankind is not required to believe in atonement, to have it. Mankind is not required to believe in the one who atoned for sin, to have it. Man is not required to repent from sinning to have atonement. So, the condition of man remains the same. Mankind continues to sin, and it is believed by some that this sinning is also atoned for.

Ok...Now I question your salvation. I hope this paragraph is hyperbolic in nature.

If you think it hyperbole, prove it! There is nothing exaggerated in what I said. The sins of the world are atoned by Jesus' death. There were no "Provided man does_______(whatever)__________? statements. The Atonement is a unilateral act of God! Thus man need not even believe there is such a thing for it to have taken place. Prove me wrong! For decades, even centuries after it happened, there were many who had not even heard of the death of one nondescript Jew in Jerusalem, let alone that his death represented Atonement of the sins of the world, even theirs. Yes, they are included in "the sins of the world".

The truth of the matter is this:

1. You are required to beleive in Christ in order for your sins to be forgiven (ie. Have their sins atoned for)

Then you are saying that belief is what atones for sin!

2. You are required to repent (stop sinning).

and here you are saying that a human's actions of repentance are required for atonement. Repentance is what man must do to be have his sins atoned.

Whether a Calvinist or an Arminian, these points should be the same.

They are the same, Belief unto salvation, Repentance unto righteousness!

If, and I hope this is a big if, your paragraph that I quoted above is what you realy meant to say, then you are deep into a heresy. And, I must, sadly, question whether you are saved.

I am certainly glad that you have no say so in my salvation, for you are ultimately wrong.

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

I must admit this post is premature, I don't have the time to say all I need to say.

However, I'd like to respond to this statement:I am certainly glad that you have no say so in my salvation, for you are ultimately wrong.

I too am VERY glad that no one's salvation is in my porous hands. I cannot save myself, let alone anyone else.

However, I assure you (along with the backing of many years of Christian History and Christian Theology) that your interpretation of the Atonement is, in fact, completely and utterly wrong. In fact, you are not bordering on heresy, you are commiting heresy.

The implications of your positon:

1. Universalism (Christ died for all regardless of their beliefs)

2. Inclusivism (an adherant to any religion will ultimately be saved)

This is just to name the two at the top of the list.

Later tonight, perhaps tomorrow, I will go through your post with a fine-tooth comb and show how, where, and why you are wrong.

Until then,

Blessings,

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

russell55

That is, mankind is not required to believe in atonement, to have it. Mankind is not required to believe in the one who atoned for sin, to have it. Man is not required to repent from sinning to have atonement. So, the condition of man remains the same. Interesting.....

I suppose this means Paul is wrong then when He say God presented Christ as a propitiatory (or atoning) sacrifice THROUGH FAITH.

It is through your individual faith, that Atonement for your sins is realized. However, the atonement was a unilateral act of God! There is nothing man can do to affect his atonement outside of individual faith in Jesus who atoned for our sins. Atonement is a finished work, individual faith is an ongoing work.

Belief in atonement does not atone for sins. Belief in the one who atones does not atone, Repentance from sin does not atone. The blood of Jesus the Son of God, the Christ, atones.

 

[Yelsew]

However, I assure you (along with the backing of many years of Christian History and Christian Theology) that your interpretation of the Atonement is, in fact, completely and utterly wrong. In fact, you are not bordering on heresy, you are commiting heresy.

The implications of your positon:

1. Universalism (Christ died for all regardless of their beliefs)

2. Inclusivism (an adherant to any religion will ultimately be saved)

This is just to name the two at the top of the list.

I did not declare that Jesus death on the cross is atonement for the sins of all mankind! Scriptures say that. Are you finding that the scriptures are heretical? Universalism says that all mankind are saved by the atonement brought by Jesus. I have said that the sins of all mankind are atoned for by the Blood of the Son of God, the Christ, shed on that cruel Roman cross 2000 years ago. One sacrifice for all mankind!

I have also clearly and repeatedly stated that atonement does not save. Forgiveness for sin does not save! Faith saves! Now if what I've said is universalism, you'd better get a better dictionary.

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

I did not declare that Jesus death on the cross is atonement for the sins of all mankind! Scriptures say that.

Wrong again. Show me chapter and verse.

Universalism says that all mankind are saved by the atonement brought by Jesus. I have said that the sins of all mankind are atoned for by the Blood of the Son of God, the Christ, shed on that cruel Roman cross 2000 years ago. One sacrifice for all mankind!

Then by implication, there will be none condemned.

I have also clearly and repeatedly stated that atonement does not save. Forgiveness for sin does not save!

Yes, you have said that. And, you have been "clearly and repeatedly" wrong.

Faith saves! Now if what I've said is universalism, you'd better get a better dictionary.

And if you don't see that your view espouses universalism, maybe you should read a good book on the atonement. I know several that I'd be happy to recomend.

Archangel

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew,

I did not declare that Jesus death on the cross is atonement for the sins of all mankind! Scriptures say that.

Wrong again. Show me chapter and verse.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (The pronouncement of Jesus' purpose) made by the forerunner for the messiah!
[John 1:36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

What is the purpose of a "Lamb of God"? There are 100 references in scripture that contain the word lamb. Most of them deal with sacrifice for atonement of sin. Revelation is the exception, with most references relating to the "Worthy Lamb", "the Conquering Lamb" The sacrificial Lamb", all referring to Jesus.

Universalism says that all mankind are saved by the atonement brought by Jesus. I have said that the sins of all mankind are atoned for by the Blood of the Son of God, the Christ, shed on that cruel Roman cross 2000 years ago. One sacrifice for all mankind!

Then by implication, there will be none condemned.

Only those who believe in Jesus are not condemned. All others regardless of the Atonement, are condemned by their own unbelief. Like I've said Atonement is not a matter of salvation of man, Belief holds that domain. Here's what Jesus said about condemnation.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have also clearly and repeatedly stated that atonement does not save. Forgiveness for sin does not save!

Yes, you have said that. And, you have been "clearly and repeatedly" wrong.

Is everybody in Kentucky as thick headed as you? "For by grace are ye saved through faith..." Look at John 3:16 where Jesus, The Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world, says "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life (salvation). If the one who atoned for the sins of the world says it is not the atonement that saves but belief on him then who am I to argue with Him?

Faith saves! Now if what I've said is universalism, you'd better get a better dictionary.

And if you don't see that your view espouses universalism, maybe you should read a good book on the atonement. I know several that I'd be happy to recomend.

It appears that you are hung up on pigeon-holing people in your theological pigeon coop. Well sorry son, you ain't gonna cram this 238 lb, 6'3" American Bald Eagle into your 6" X 6" X 12" pigeon coop. If ya keep tryin' I'll stomp yor sittin' part deep into your blue grass! Tain't nuttin' so mulish, as a puny man thinkin' he can outsmart God! So quit already!

 

[The Archangel]

Yelsew,

This will be a "quickie" because I've got gobbs of other stuff to do.

You said this:Only those who believe in Jesus are not condemned. All others regardless of the Atonement, are condemned by their own unbelief. Like I've said Atonement is not a matter of salvation of man, Belief holds that domain.

If salvation is based on man's belief, why is there a need for the atonement?

Archangel

 

[wolldog]

Yelsew,

[John 1:36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

What is the purpose of a "Lamb of God"? There are 100 references in scripture that contain the word lamb. Most of them deal with sacrifice for atonement of sin. Revelation is the exception, with most references relating to the "Worthy Lamb", "the Conquering Lamb" The sacrificial Lamb", all referring to Jesus.

It appears to me that you are out to bring up the old testament sacrifices. Tell me now, who exactly did the sacrifice cover. Surely you wouldn't lead me to believe that the sins of the entire world were atoned for by the sacrifice of one lamb once a year. No, the bible teaches that the sacrifice only applied to the Israelites (people of God). Now, when the bible the people of God in the new testament, does he mean the Israelites? Of course not. He uses that term to refer to all of Christendom. Therefore, the use of the name Lamb of God, means that Christ died for the sins of God's people.

Soli Deo Gloria,

wolldog

 

[Yelsew]

Possibly, but I think you limit God, because Jesus opened up God's people to include the Gentiles.

As before Jesus, 'all' the Jews were included in God's people, though not all of them had faith, so after Jesus, all the Gentiles are included in God's People, even though not all have faith.

Therefore, Jesus' death on the Cross is Atonement for the sins of the world.

If salvation is based on man's belief, why is there a need for the atonement?

Jesus brought salvation to man through the man's belief in Jesus. That Salvation brings sanctification, belief being what sets the believer apart from unbelievers. Jesus brought Justification for all mankind by the Atonement that is possible only through His blood.

[ March 09, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[russell55]

DP

 

[russell55]

As before Jesus, 'all' the Jews were included in God's people, though not all of them had faith, so after Jesus, all the Gentiles are included in God's People, even though not all have faith.

But this is one of the things that changes with the new covenant. Now all of God's people are faithful (Hebrews 8). The unbelieving Jews are cut off, and the believing Gentiles are grafted in. (Romans 11). The entrance into God's people is now by spiritual birth, not physical birth (somewhere in Galatians).

Jesus brought salvation to man through the man's belief in Jesus. That Salvation brings sanctification, belief being what sets the believer apart from unbelievers.

It is the Spirit who accomplishes sanctification, and it is the Spirit who sets the believer apart from the unbeliever.

 

[Yelsew]

It is the Spirit who accomplishes sanctification, and it is the Spirit who sets the believer apart from the unbeliever.

The distinction between believer and unbeliever is belief in the Son of God the Messiah. The believer is thus set apart by belief whereas the unbeliever has seen no change at all. The spirit indwells the believer, and not the unbeliever, but one must come to belief in order to receive the blessing of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.