What exactly is a free will decision?

Hello Wes.

Doesn't need much thought for what you did Wes o lord.

What is hogwash? Do people really bath pigs?

PS 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.

john.

 

Doesn't need much thought for what you did Wes o lord.

What is hogwash? Do people really bath pigs?

PS 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]You may be right, but johnp, what you think I've done is a figment of your imagination because you do not understand what I've said. I look at the same things you look at, and see them with clear eyes in the Spirit of Christ, and you look at them through Calvinist eyes.

 

Hello Wes.

Yea man but what do you say? "If I was God." I mean "If I was God."?
Don't think I am against a man having ambition but I think you overeach yourself.

That's ok we have been here before.
I do not use Calvin's words but I do use scripture.
(Once I think I've used Calvin's words and that was to prove to Bob that Calvin believed in the eternal security of our children and their children or election by genetics as he would say. HaHa!)
That I might look through Calvin tinted glasses I must admit to. A genius of the first order and a man that changed the world more than anyone since Paul. But I was more noble than others and I went away to study the scripture to find where the man was wrong. But initially I heard the goodnews before I ever heard of Calvin and our great Reformation.
I thought you had to do something to make God like you but God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8. Like a duck to water I took to this and I learnt. I learnt to know God loves me personally. That He is crazy about me. The reason He cares to live is because one day we will be together really. I am a pearl of the greatest price and I care nothing what man says.

john.

 

Nothing the Calvinists say will ever convince me that God created man to be robots forced into hell.

The Calvinist argument always comes across to me like a childish cop out. "It isn't my fault! God made me do it!"

God did not make you sin. God does not make you choose hell over salvation.

God ALLOWS you to obey or disobey.
God ALLOWS you to accept or reject salvation.

Stop blaming God for your sins.

 

Me either.

I've not heard that Calvinist argument. The Calvinist argument I have heard is that it is our fault, because we love our sin more than we love God. If left to ourselves we would never choose Him.

I agree completely.

When you write against Calvinism and a Calvinist agrees with you, does it make you think?

 

The bible teaches that God loved "the world," that God sent His son into the "world" that "the world" through Him might be saved.

The bible teaches that the message of Grace unto salvation is sent to "all" men.

The bible teaches that "God desires that all be saved unto repentence."

The basic Calvinist argument of, "Men sinned, men can't reach to god, so God reaches to men, and only those called are saved, some die, so God must not have called everyone," basically communicates that either God is NOT all powerful because apparently He cannot save all men, even though He desires it. OR - the bible lied when it said He desires all men be saved.

The basic fact is, God offered a sacrifice of grace to all men, and allowed man the right to choose to accept or reject it.

 

humm. how about this. would the Bible convince you?

saying those that believe in election as the Bible teaches election are programmed robots is showing me a lacking in the understanding of election.

Because God choose us does not mean we walk around like zombies only doing Gods wishes. Its kinda funny that one can not believe in a words like election, choosen and grace which are found many times in the Bible and yet hold to another phrase "Freewill" not in the Bible.

In many places in the Bible that teach election you will find wove in with this, the teaching of responsibility or shortly followed after that text. We are also told to preach the gospel. If we were robots why even have the Word of God telling us to do this? God could only push that button and make us.

No one says we are robots other than those that do not understand election.

In Christ...James

 

It sure does.

Yep.

It also teaches that God commands all men everywhere to repent. God would not command people to do something unless He desired for them to do it. Maybe you should use this verse instead of the other one, because then you would not have to answer that "all of what" question.

Or, perhaps there is a tertium quid. Sometimes we have competing desires - we really want that quart of rocky road ice cream, and we also really want to lose those extra pounds so that our waistbands no longer cut off our circulation. If we end up forgoing the ice cream, would any reasonable person argue that we really did not want it? Of course not. Who is to say, then, that God does not have competing desires? The Bible seems to indicate that He does.

Well, that is a basic fact, but there are other basic facts too.

 

here are 2 other misunderstandings about election.

God makes you sin? that is a lie.

no one but those that believe in freewill says this.


this comes from a lack of understanding mans sin nature ..that all men have. Mans sin nature makes him sin. Even the elect have this sin nature. 1st John says if we say we have no sin we are a liar. when we become saved sin is not our master any longer. This is what is meant when the Bible says we are freed from sin..for sin controlled us before salvation.


In Christ ...James

 

There you have it. Salvation based on the merit of man.

Now we need a non-offensive version to agree with such foolishness, for the use of the ones offended with the Bible as it is, a new version revised to comfort the easily offended reader.

I saw also man sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up. . .

 

I mean this with all my heart texas. This is not a dig..so please do not take it this way.

Some of the things you say about God scares me. we have talked many times. Sometimes you just state your veiw and that is fine. Other times you make statements like this..

"God is NOT all powerful because apparently He cannot save all men, even though He desires it. OR - the bible lied when it said He desires all men be saved. "

How can you be so bold? what if God is in control as we say He is? I mean calvinist are the ones that start with Gods soverignty. Gods soverignty is what makes Calvins teachings work. Because God is in control he can do as He pleases. God can choose who he wills. This is Gods will. I limit God in no way.

Freewill starts with Gods love. as you prove with the verses you always post. I think starting with Gods love you passover not only a soverign God but also a sinful man. This gives you a tainted veiw of God. The statement.."God is love" is not pure unless we KNOW God is soverign. God is not just love God is the very essences of Love. With out Gods love we would not even have love. Because God is in full control Gods love is sure. Also to pass over sin man does not know what he is saved from. Sin is real. Sin must be addressed

you state above.." even though He desires" he being man

yet the bible says no one seeks God. No one texas. This is because of mans sin nature. you claim over and over...God wants all to be saved. Yes..he does want all to be saved. but none would come to God...None texas.

whosoever will may come.....but who will come texas? no one.

God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believes may be saved. but who will believe? No one texas.

all the passages above talk of Gods love. and there are many more like these. But the Bible teaches more about God. You need to teach everything about God.

by passing over Gods soverignty and mans sin nature what does this do to Gods will?

placing man in control (freewill) is wrong.
Placing God in control in no way limits God

 

the greek word for all in those verses...

"God desires that all be saved unto repentence."....this word is "pas" and is defined by it context with meanings ranging from all to most to CERTIAN ONES, or ALL OF A CERTIAN KIND. Kittles theological dictionary can be used as proof. look it up. there fore God desires all of a certian kind to be saved unto repentence would be a better translation. by the way "pas" is used in every verse talking about "all" the world being saved. i read a majoriety text printed by soverein grace. this is just so you know my sources.

thankyou and God Bless

 

i think the biggest problem to some on this issue is they think God is not a God of love unless man can chose.

This too is a mis-understanding. anyone that has had kids can understand this. We do not let our kids freewill to chose. If we did..they would not live to the age of 3.

Love is not freewill at all.

 

Well, suppose God is able to tell among all the branches which ones would involve events not working out to His plan and then eliminate them, leaving the rest for us to travel among making our choices?

 

So the angel came to Mary and asked her if it was ok for God to use her as a vessel to bring the Christ into the world.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
If Mary had said no way Yahweh then I suppose He could have asked another virgin but then again Mary might not have been the first one asked just the first that gave God permission.

Vote for me or go to Hell does not seem like a choice of free will but is coercion.

john.

 

Exactly. This applies as well to the condemned.

Scripture plainly states that God loved Jacob and hated Esau.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Is God unjust for hating Esau? NO, because God "will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Esau did not receive God's mercy and compassion.

Esau was the object of God's wrath which he "bore with great patience" and "prepared for destruction" (22).

Is Esau the exception to your view that God loves all men, or are all men who do not receive God's mercy hated by him?

 

What if 2 Peter 3:9 (the only verse in this whole big contention) was excized from the Bible and people couldn't build an entire doctrine on it? What then? Has anyone considered that we need to compare scripture with scripture rather than building a house on a verse with a scrupulous interpretation? The COC does this with Acts 2:38, the Catholics do this with Matthew 16:18, so you can see what happens when you don't take a balanced view of scripture.

Scripture says that Christ is seeking the lost- but are they the elect lost or the damned lost? What if the Arminian interpretation based on one verse is wrong and God really isn't seeking to save the damned lost? Wouldn't that explain a lot of His actions?

 

It would be nice whetstone, if you would practice what you preach about not building a doctrine upon one single numbered verse of scripture.

Up to the manifestation of the Christ in human form, the scriptures are written about a single "family", the Jews whom the scriptures describe as "the chosen race". Jesus was born a jew, and scriptures say that He came to his own but his own received him not.

Here's a question for you,

If the jews had received him, would we be talking about "an elect" among the gentiles?

Did God suddenly change his mind and re-choose those he would call the elect?

If your name is written in the book of life from before the foundation of the world, what's the big deal with "going out into all the world making disciples"? If you name is already in the book of life and all of the names in the book of life will be saved, there is absolutely no reason for the church.