What exactly is a free will decision?

For those of you saying, "God exercised His will," the bible says, in undebateable terms HIS will was that NNE PERISH and ALL be saved.

It also says, in clear words, Man REFUSED the truth.

Why don't you STOP arguing for "what I was taught," and pray about it. Ask God if He wants you to accept the gift He freely offers or if He "forced it on you."

 

And while you are at it. Ask Him why your faith requires such contadictions?

Why does your faith require that you "keep it a secret until they are saved?"

Why does your faith require that you "try to lead men to Christ," when you "know that you can't because man has no choice in the matter?"

Why does Christ say, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," when you really can't help whether you believe or not?

Your faith is full of contradictions because it is WRONG.

God loved you.
God sent His son for you.
God offered you His forgiveness.
God allowed you to accept or refuse it.

That doesn't require contradictions, hiding, or explaining why God would choose to send some to Hell. Its simple and straight forward.

God loves you, He offers you love, and He lets you choose who you will follow. Christ or Satan.

 

Romans 16:17-18 17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught ; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

No, I'll be like the Romans and stick to my teachers, Paul, Jesus....

Big sky, have you heard of Hermeneutics class? It will help you alot with all those verses you keep taking out of context. Your foundation is made on them and shows why your reasoning is so fractured.

 

RC,

You go out of your way to resort to immature name-calling and insulting charges when people disagree with you. It says a lot about the kind of testimony you offer. You resort to trying to talk down to people, I assume as some way of intimidating or bullying them into silence. Good luck with that on a Christian Board.

As to "teachers" .. I am not taking scripture out of context. Please take the time to go back and read the chapter and you'll see that I'm not.

Read the books, the letters of Paul, the words of Christ - in context, beginning of a book of the bible to the end, and see if this is a God that randomly said, "Okay, I'll let RC be saved, but I won't let his neighbor."

As to Heremeneutics - Interesting that you bring it up. The name comes from a false god, and is actually a philosophical term more than a theological one.

For those who are not familiar with the term, it refers to Interpretation.

And in fact, interpretation is what concerns me.

The bible says that "All have sinned and fallen shot of the glory of God."

No one seems to have a problem accepting that. I don't. You don't. We all interpret that the same way.

But when it says, "God sends his message of grace unto salvation to all men," you and those like you, scream, "No, wait, all doesn't mean all!" Even though it is the same Greek word in the same tense.

The reason, I assume, you scream foul, is because it makes your interpretation of the scripture "wrong," and you can't deal with that possiblity. So you try to explain it away with things like, "Well, it says all of Judea followed Him, but it couldn't have REALLY meant that, so all must not mean all." Hogwash. ALL is ALL - in English, Greek, Hebrew, French - ALL IS ALL.

The bible says God so loved the WORLD. I interpret that very straight forward. "God loved all of us." Just as all of us sinned, and all of us were unworthy, His grace was meant for ALL of us.

You, apparently, interpret that as a 1/2 truth. He didn't really love the World. Christ didn't really come for the world. He loved "some" of us, and sent Christ for "a few of us."

That's just heresy.

The bible says, "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved."

Doesn't say, "They were never offered."

You can't "refuse" what is not offered.

The bible is clear. It even goes on, IN CONTEXT and says that BECAUSE THEY REFUSED God send a delusion to them.

Cause and effect is clearly spelled out by the Paul you claim to follow.

As to me.

I follow Christ.
I love Paul's work. I respect it. I believe it is God breathed, just as James', Peter's, and John's is.

But I~ FOLLOW ~Christ, and any man who equates anyone else in the world, apostle or not as equal to Christ - is just plain wrong.

 

One last thing RC.

The way that I "interpret" scripture is to stop, before I read my bible, and ask God, "Show me what your word means, Lord. Not what my Pastor says, not what the seminary presidents says, not what my friends say. Show me what YOU say, Lord."

And then, I read. If a verse is brought up, I go to the bible and I read the beginning of the chapter (or book) it is in, and I read to the end of the chapter or book it is in. And then I pray and ask God to help me understand it.

I research it.

I go to the Greek Lexicon, I go to Strong's, I go to Hebrew. I check the study notes and the translator notes. I compare King James to NIV and Greek, and at times to other translations to see which ones say what and why.

And I pray over it.

That's how I found 2 Thess 2:10 by the way. I prayed. I asked God to show me if we really had a choice or not, to show me if I was reading Peter and Titus and other words correctly. I didn't get out my bible and start searching for verses to prove my point. I got it out to study the verses people like you keep tossing around, to see if you are right, and while looking up the arguements of those who say we have no choice - God lead me to 2:10. I was stunned to find it right there in very easy to read english. "They perish because they refused the truth."

I know my Lord, RC.
Not just from scripture, from a personal walk of faith that has seen me through some very .. very.. very trying times.

My God ~is~ what my bible says He is.
He IS loving.
He IS gracious.
He IS forgiving even when we do not deserve it.
He IS patient.
And He DOES.. He REALLY does desire that none perish and that all repent to be saved.

And in so desiring, He OFFERS pardon and peace to all men, but some men refuse His gracious offer. And He lets them go.

But this theory that .. God only reaches out to some because sin is in the world - - - how can you forget that ALL OF US are sinners?

How can you forget that not a single solitary one of us deserves His love or mercy?

How can you think that God would reach to you, and not someone else? Why would you think you were better than anyone else that the Great Yahweh would reach out to YOU and not your next door neighbor?

God reached out to EVERYONE because Christ DIED for EVERYONE.

And if we go to hell it is NOT because God loved selectively. If we go to hell it is because, as the bible says "We REFUSED THE TRUTH."

 

texas..really...do you know greek? I mean one time you said you study greek...but have you really?

I'm not asking if you have a Greek Lexicon, or a Strong's. every one has those. have you study greek?

 

Just wondering - do you really think that Calvinists do not know about that verse? Do you really think that we do not believe that verse? Really?



If one is saved it is because God chose to save her. If one is lost it is because she refuses to believe the truth. That's Calvinism.

 

NO NO NO

If one is lost and Calvinism is correct, then she is damned to hell because God chose NOT to save her! How can you give Free Will to the damned while refuting FREE WILL for those who come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

Calvinism: Either God choses you for salvation or he choses to NOT save you. This is why Calvinism is such a silly belief! It doesn't make one bit of sense. A series of contradictions that add up to nada.

 

Romans 16:17-18 17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught ; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

No, I'll be like the Romans and stick to my teachers, Paul, Jesus....

Big sky, have you heard of Hermeneutics class? It will help you alot with all those verses you keep taking out of context. Your foundation is made on them and shows why your reasoning is so fractured. </font>[/QUOTE]So are you saying that only those who have taken a hermeneutics class or some other scholarly achievement know the true meaning of the God's Word? Why do YOU depend on man to teach you when we can open up the Bible and be face to face with the Creator? His Word tells me the Holy Spirit will discern within me the truth, no classes needed. Those verses that you claim are taken out of context, are as plain as day what their meanings are. Only man can corrupt and twist scripture to mean what they want it to mean, i.e. calvinists, JW's, universalists, catholics, etc.

 

You where the kid that argued with the teacher that 1 plus 1 is three.. aren't you?

God gave TEACHERS... and in line with the tradition of the church fathers in doctrine. But you wouldn't know that would you.

Do you know why there are JW's? Because a lazy untaught church and all it's history didn't know any better than to teach the heresy of Arianism in the Council of Nicene and to kick out those who started teaching it again.

Universalist also in church history and the tradition of the teaching of the church fathers deemed it as a heresy.

Calvinists? hmm how ironic... don't know history do you?

What did the councils say of Catholics (Zosimus' decision was the birth of the RC AND Arminianism? ....
Don't know history do you?

Righteousness does not live in the land of forgetfulness.

Unfortunately the crying baby gets the attention instead of the responsible son. And man centered, liberal, irresponsible, easy theology goes to the lazy unlearned. The second law of dynamics is in control of theology as politics unfortunately. Or the tripe that is in Broadway is as majestic as Shakespeare also... Who cares what our teachers taught, I've got ME !

As for yourself and the Holy Spirit? He also in His Word demands that you do not stray from what has been taught and there is a way that SEEMS right unto a man and that way leads to death. A man who SEEKS COUNCIL wins wars....

You my friend are losing the war.

 

NO NO NO

If one is lost and Calvinism is correct, then she is damned to hell because God chose NOT to save her! How can you give Free Will to the damned while refuting FREE WILL for those who come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

Calvinism: Either God choses you for salvation or he choses to NOT save you. This is why Calvinism is such a silly belief! It doesn't make one bit of sense. A series of contradictions that add up to nada. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, you are so right. I am so thankful for people who are willing to tell me what I believe.

Not.

"For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction."

(If one is saved it is because God chose to save her.)

"whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God"

(If one is lost it is because she refuses to believe the truth.)

Contradiction, huh? You will have to take it up with the Author.

 

JArthur,

Yes, I ~really~ have ~studied~ Greek and I really have ~studied~ Hebrew.

Made straight A's in every bible, theology and religion class I took too.

 

David,

I agree with you when you say I really consider Calvinism and Arminianism to be "partial theories."

I do not accept the total precepts of either theory.

I believe that acceptance of God's grace is the only requirement of salvation. I do not believe this lessons God in anyway, as every King has a right to set terms, and God set the terms at "you must accept Christ."

But - I don't believe man can fall from Grace after being saved, and I do believe that God knows our hearts better than we do. Not that He manipulates them, but that He KNOWS them.

 

Well then you had to understand the not more then 10 greek words i posted..because it was in no way deep. yet you tell others it says something else. why do that texas?

 

forced it on you? i mean really tex
I have posted how that is not the case...and i have seen many others post tell you the same...yet you still want to FORCE this view on us. Let me say again..what many has already said.

God does not force you to sin. God does not force you to believe. God does not force you into hell. you keep posting these..followed by God loves all...like this will prove something

study? tex..i mean really. how can you be so BOLD? do you not think i have study this on my own?

do you not think i have prayed over this? My guess is nearly everyone that has posted on this forum has study and ask God to show them. I know i have. I came from a arminian back ground. i didn't come-up on this by reading calvin. the 1st time i read calvin was 3-4 years ago. I didn't come up on this by hearing preaching on it. my preachers preached "come to God ye sinners"...and "repent" as they should. as a matter of fact...it was at the age of 23-24 before i heard the 5 points of calvin. before this time i had read verses..and wondered...why abraham? i read and it said..elect...humm. i tried for years to twist this to mean something else..but elect means elect texas. read the greek...there is NO other way to see it..then elect means elect. i tried to make the elect a group...and sometimes it works out. But sometimes it does not fit as a group. so what then do we do? you do what you want texas...but i have to deal with it...not jump to another verse about Gods love.

I do not preach calvin in my home. I do remind my girls..God is in control...and that is where calvin starts...but this is not the teachings of calvin. not one time in the 25 years i have had kids...have i we as a family gone over election as we study Gods word. 25 years...no less then 4 days a week....how many times is that? alot. yet...at the young age...around 7...my middle girl comes up to me..and asked...Dad...why did God choose Israel? I about fell over. i mean..she didn't know how deep that was. I didn't want to lead her wrong by saying it was something good He saw in them. That is not in the Bible. yet...was she ready for the deep stuff? no..not at that age. i just said...ashley...God loves everyone....and for some reason He picked israel...and i do not really know why. When we get to heaven we can ask Him.

Ashley came up with this..on her own. It is in the Bible. I came up with this on my own...i had to deal with it.

now i have read books that helped me understand better.

if i posted a new topic today..asking for verse showing man has freewill to choose God...all i would get is verses showing Gods love. God in action...asking sinners to come. God..saying His son died for all sins. God saying..whoever comes..i will not turn away. This is called grace..not mans freewill

the point is...and always has been.. with mans sin nature...who will come texas?
WHO?

this is what YOU do not deal with. If you post a verse to change this view..i will have to deal with that verse. .i'm not locked in to calvin. I'm locked into the Bible. You post something from the Bible that shows mans freewill..and you will win over all calvins.

not a verse where God is asking...for this is God. ...but showing where man will come to God..with out God asking. that is called freewill texas...and so far i have not found this anywhere in the Bible.

 

I'm not fighting the war. The war was won on the cross. I'm a beneficiary of that war.

Phil. 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". Is discerning the Word included in the "all things"? No arguing from me that teachers are important. The problem comes when those "teachers" claim God is not what the Word says He is to everyone, and the power of the blood cannot do what the Word says it does for everyone. To me, calvinism falls into this category. Depend on your intellect all you want. You won't have to answer to me some day.

 

Yes that is a problem. And when those "teachers" promoted those teachings from the pulpit, the church listened, and studied and compared with what was "handed down" from the APOSTLES and their students to determine heresy.

And Pelagius, Zosimus, and Arminius where "outside" of the teaching of orthodox doctrine. You would plainly see this if you studied church history. It would keep people from straying to improper doctrines. That is way catechisms where made. To bad no one knows them anymore.

Righteousness does not live in the land of forgetfulness.

[ July 13, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: rc ]

 

God set the terms at "you must accept Christ."

This is not the problem Tex. Since you know "Greek" hmmm... you know that this is an "imperative" and not an indicative. It does not indicate what CAN be done but what OUGHT to be done. You CAN NOT infer an indicative from an imperative! If you do this you render the law of God useless. The commands of God are not given to man so they CAN do them but to show man they CAN NOT do them. The law (ALL imperatives) ONLY brings the knowledge of SIN. That is it's purpose.
This is fully explained in Luther's "De Servo Arbitrio". (The Bondage of the Will) Luther's reply to Erasmus'(secular humanist by the way) "Diatribe"