What exactly is a free will decision?

JArthur,

I don't "post verses" to "change the discussion." You cannot study God's word without looking at the continuity of it, so if you address certain issues, and there are scriptures which address those issues, I go to those scriptures, it is as simple as that.

And yes, "forced it on you," is what Calvinism, in the end, has to mean. You cannot simply "ignore" the reality of the arguement you make because it doesn't sound nice. Predestination as taught by John Calvin, in the end, teaches that God forces salvation on some and forces damnation on others.

It teaches that God preselected who would be saved, without any acceptance or rejection allowed on the part of the man preselected. That is force.

It teaches that God preselected who would never be saved, without the calling of the Holy Spirit ever reaching them. That is also force.

I can tell my children - "You can go to the park or the zoo today," and know, in my heart, that they will select the zoo because they love animals, and they have chosen of their free will.

OR, I can put the kids in the car, and take them to the zoo, without a choice. That is force.

I think this is the most frustrating thing to me about most Calvinists. They argue so hard and so strong against the "harsh wording" of what they really teach that they OBVIOUSLY see what they teach is a terrible insult to God.

But, here is your chance, and Pastor Larry's and any other Cavlinists choice.

If you say that those who reject your teachings are wrong, and that you are NOT saying, "God forces you," and "God sends some to hell," then by all means - explain how God can "pre-select" who will go to heaven, and "pre-select" who will go to hell, and remove all choice from them in the equation AND STILL NOT BE FORCING THEM.

And do not come back with that nonsense about "it is a mystery," or "we can't explain God," or "well, man sinned first."

We aren't talking about "who sinned first." ALL theology teaches man sinned. The issue is does God offer forgiveness to all men or not?
The issue is does God actually say that Christ did NOT die for some men?

If you aren't saying God forced some men to hell, then explain to us how you can say what you DO say and NOT mean that God forced some men to hell.

 

"You can go to the park or the zoo today," and know, in my heart, that they will select the zoo because they love animals, and they have chosen of their free will.

Again tex your problem is you have a humanistic, philosophical understanding of free-will and not a Biblical one.


Your kids analogy is good, but flawed. Your kids do not utterly HATE, and think the Park is foolishness. Now if they hate the Park and LOVE the Zoo and you ask them, what will they pick? OF COURSE ! THE ZOO ! AND GUESS WHAT? That is where your analogy takes you where you don't want it to go.... The kids WILL ALWAYS choose the ZOO! Won't they? It is set in stone. Their heart is INCLINED to LOVE THE ZOO and hate the park. Thus by their own disposition (heart) they will always choose the Zoo. That IS free will!!!

The Bible clearly states that man IS AT ENMITY WITH GOD. HE HATES the things of GOD and is ALWAYS inclined toward EVIL.

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Just like your kids and the zoo so are the natural man and evil.
They have a free will and it will ALWAYS choose EVIL. God does not force them there, they RUN to it !!

In God's regeneration of the elect, He gives man a new DISPOSITION!! A new HEART!

Ezekiel 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you : and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

NOW the park is now seen as BEAUTIFUL and lovely and gives the kids a LONGING TO CHOOSE out of their HEART (free will) to go to the park instead of the Zoo BECAUSE they freely SEE and LOVE the park and despise the zoo. Again the choice to go to the park is out of a FREE WILL choice because they still CHOOSE what they desire MOST! God only changed their heart. He doesn't FORCE anything.

 

texas..consider this order if you will

1)God is
2)God makes man
3)Man falls into sin
4)God gives a promise of redemption
5)Christ comes
6)God invites all to be saved
7)Man believes and is saved

both of us will agree to this..or i think we do
this is the gospel..is it not?

now add this..”no one seeks after God”

where do you place this Bible truth? I place it between 6 and seven.

but then how do we get to 7?
election

you say you deal with all verses.
deal with..”no one seeks after God.
where does this go?

 

JArthur,

Let me answer you by asking you - where do you put the biblical truth that says "God desires that none perish and that all men repent?" Or the one that says His message of grace unto salvation is sent to all men?

Since God seeks all men - the final choice is whether man responds to the call of God or not.

 

ok that is fair.
i would place it in with 6. That to me..is God wanting all to be saved. For the call is to all. and God died for all

so..back to you...where do you place
"no one seeks after God"?

 

Hi J Arthur;
You asked T.S.

I don't know about Tex but I place it where it belongs with it's original passage.
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Since a fool said it I don't pay much attenetion to it. He also said there is no God. Why should we pay any attenetion to such nonsense. The whole reason of following Christ is seeking God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

The problem is PAUL USESES IT FOR THE REASONING HE IS GIVING IN THE TEXT !

A natural man does not see Christ as saviour but a fool. He will never choose what he sees as foolishness. And that is the natural mans will, to seek what he desires, and that is not God man evil.. CONTINUALLY.

 

I don't know about Tex but I place it where it belongs with it's original passage.
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Since a fool said it I don't pay much attenetion to it. He also said there is no God. Why should we pay any attenetion to such nonsense. The whole reason of following Christ is seeking God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Hi there luvlight,

We have never talked and it is my pleasure to do so. My studies are in Greek History, so i do know a small amount of Greek. However Hebrew is not one of my strong points. I do however remember a few things about the psalm. And i remember a style..or a form..or something like that...in which you find psalms. Now Maybe texas can help us with this part. I'll give you the little i know...but i may speak as a fool..so make sure you check me out.

But..if i remember right. They are wrote in groups of thoughts in order to compound one point. Most of the time this is done in groups of 3...but not always. One must undersand this style to fully get the meaning of the psalms. This is not like proverbs where you see comparing one side to the other.

Like..a fool says....but the wise says...........

So lets look at this psalm you pointed out..and see what it says.

i will break the groups the way i see them. You may see them a bit diffrent then i...but we should be close.

ok..here we go.

verse 1
The fool says in his heart,
a)"There is no God."
b)They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
c)there is no one who does good.
You see here 3 statements..all with the same point. The point "the fools heart".
The fools heart starts with "there is no God
The fools heart is corrupt and vile
The fool does no good.

verse 2   
The LORD looks down from heaven
a)on the sons of men
b)to see if there are any who understand,
c)any who seek God.


the point is..God looks at man
he looks down on the sons of men
He looks..(see)..if any man understands
He looks for any that seek God


Verse 3
All have turned aside,
a) they have together become corrupt;
b) there is no one who does good,
c) not even one.
The point is...all men
all are corrupt
all do no good
(all is in the negative here)...none


Verse 4-5
Will evildoers never learn—
a) those who devour my people as men eat bread
b) and who do not call on the LORD ?
c) There they are, overwhelmed with dread,

point...men never learn
men devour others
men do not call on God
men are overwhelmed with dread

David now looks at God.

"for God is present in the company of the righteous.

Verse 7
 Oh, that salvation
a)for Israel would come out of Zion!
b)When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people,
C)let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

the salvation of Israel is the point
salvation comes from God...or maybe out of heaven
Salvation comes when God restores fortunes
With salvation comes praise.

so what is the context?

I think you will find it hard to say this is the fool talking, but rather this is God talking about mankind. You see this all the way though the other verses...so if you back up and read the 1st verse again...you will see this is God calling man a fool for not believeing in God. even if you do not believe this part....please tell me you see it is God talking about man in verse 3...which is the verse i ask texas to place in order.

Ok now back to paul...you will find just as RC said. Paul uses this text as if it is man. If it is not man, then paul is quoting out of context..and i'm sure you do not think this.

So...i say without any doubt..this is MANKIND. I say too...this is God looking at man

So....where do we place this statement..
"no one seeks God?


I hope this helps..

In Christ...james

 

Jarther,

Good understanding. Jarther.... come on ... did you take a 201 Heb. lit. class? I think so ! If not, you've done some good reading. Good job. I'm glad you have patience to write it down sometimes I and others get weary. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

RC

I will be the 1st to say...Hebrew does not click with me.

But..i did have good teachers..and that helped get me though.

But,,,thanks for your comments

In Christ...James

 

BTW texas...

You can say.."i do not know where to place it"
I do not want to hold you to one answer.

The point is...you have to deal with this verse and others. If you do not know...because you can not agree where it takes you......hey..you do not know. That is not bad. It shows understanding that God is greater than us.

This answer would fall into the "Gods mystery" answer. And that answer is better then the.."forget that verse" answer.

In Christ...James

 

I invite any of "mans unlimited will" believer to post where this statement of truth goes when teaching order of salvation.

"no one seeks after God"

or here is another one you can place in this line up

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

the light had come to earth...it was in the darkness..shinning. but the darkness (world) did not understand.

where would a "mans unlimited will" believer place this in a order that leads to salvation?

In Christ....James

 

Hello?

 

give em a minute man it is a tricky question.

john.

 

For what purpose? (clue, atonement of sin so that ALL who believe Jesus' call CAN BE saved.)

Boy, Psalm 14 gets quoted a lot by Calvinists, when David was probably recalling history, like in Genesis and the circumstanses that brought on the flood, or maybe in Genesis when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Shoot, Even Paul quotes David's recollection of History, Paul must have been calvinized too, 'cause Calvinists like to quote Paul quoting David!

Then there is

A universal, unilateral call to ALL, that would not have been made if the doctrine of election is true!

The Gospel fulfilled!