What Happened "On That Day"? Genesis 2:17

[asterisktom]

Well, I wouldn't be quite so bold as to say the WHOLE system of sacrifice started that day. But it does make sense to me that sacrifice for sin could have started that day.

Let me rephrase: What would later become the whole system of sacrifice had its beginning that day. No, I did not mean that doves were offered and all the other minor laws were done that day.

More later when I get time for this.

 

[1689Dave]

Whoever had to teach a child to lie? They are born spiritually dead with a will enslaved to the flesh.

 

[37818]

Whoever had to teach a child to lie? They are born spiritually dead with a will enslaved to the flesh.

Psalms 58:3.

Yet Jesus taught, ". . . Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." (As it relates to the need to be born over, John 3:3-4)

 

[37818]

Why did God say to Adam that he would die on the day that should he eat of the forbidden fruit when he clearly did not die on that day?

That understanding makes God the liar and not the Devil, Genesis 3:4. Jesus taught otherwise saying, John 8:44, ". . .the devil, . . . . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, . . ."

That knowledge of good and evil was our infinitely good God's knowledge, Genesis 3:22, ". . . the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . ." which caused the finite good created man to have a sinful nature, Genesis 3:7, ". . . the eyes of them both where openned, . . ." The truth of this cause is not taught in the traditions of men.

 

[asterisktom]

That understanding makes God the liar and not the Devil, Genesis 3:4. Jesus taught otherwise saying, John 8:44, ". . .the devil, . . . . He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, . . ."

No need to be insulting.

It does not make God a liar anymore than when God told Hezekiah to put his house in order and then he was granted fifteen more years. Or that God inspired Jonah to announce doomsday for Nineveh and then He repented because they repented.

And here in Genesis 3 we have the beginning of the doctrine of substitution.

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

And, yes, the Devil was a murderer from the beginning. Why would you even bring that up?

 

[Derf B]

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

This a fantastic question, because it provokes deep thoughts and admits our answers will mostly be mere opinions.

But the most obvious, and biblical, answer is “because they had become ashamed of their nakedness”.
Genesis 2:25 (KJV)
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

 

[37818]

No need to be insulting.

Hmm, did you not pose the question, Why did God say to Adam that he would die on the day that should he eat of the forbidden fruit when he clearly did not die on that day? Explain to us how that is not calling God a liar? And how that does not take sides with the Devil's lie, "Ye shall not surely die: . . ."?

It does not make God a liar anymore than when God told Hezekiah to put his house in order and then he was granted fifteen more years. Or that God inspired Jonah to announce doomsday for Nineveh and then He repented because they repented.

How are they then same type of warning and exception?Adam had not yet sinned and they had. Your argument is not logical.

Why do you think God clothed Adam and Eve?

It is not explicitly explained. What we do know Adam and Eve disobyed and as a result had evil thoughts and clothed themselves. God killed an animal to clothe them. It is not so stated but is interpreted by many to be a case of substution for Adam and Eve's physical death on that day. An animial's blood was shed.

And, yes, the Devil was a murderer from the beginning. Why would you even bring that up?

Because Adam and Eve where murdered by the Devil on that day. Meaning in some way they had died on that day.

 

[asterisktom]

This a fantastic question, because it provokes deep thoughts and admits our answers will mostly be mere opinions.

But the most obvious, and biblical, answer is “because they had become ashamed of their nakedness”.
Genesis 2:25 (KJV)
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

I would say that there is more to it than that. Not only were they naked, and knew they were naked. They also hid from God. Those goes beyond mere ashamedness to cowering and shrinking away from God. This should bring several verses to mind, especially in Heb. and Rev.

 

[asterisktom]

Hmm, did you not pose the question, Why did God say to Adam that he would die on the day that should he eat of the forbidden fruit when he clearly did not die on that day? Explain to us how that is not calling God a liar? And how that does not take sides with the Devil's lie, "Ye shall not surely die: . . ."?


How are they then same type of warning and exception?Adam had not yet sinned and they had. Your argument is not logical.

It is not explicitly explained. What we do know Adam and Eve disobyed and as a result had evil thoughts and clothed themselves. God killed an animal to clothe them. It is not so stated but is interpreted by many to be a case of substution for Adam and Eve's physical death on that day. An animial's blood was shed.

Because Adam and Eve where murdered by the Devil on that day. Meaning in some way they had died on that day.

OK, well we disagree. Take care.

 

[Derf B]

I would say that there is more to it than that. Not only were they naked, and knew they were naked. They also hid from God. Those goes beyond mere ashamedness to cowering and shrinking away from God. This should bring several verses to mind, especially in Heb. and Rev.

Because they knew they had violated His command—sure. Plus we know they had already attempted to cover themselves with leaves sewed together.


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[church mouse guy]

Ken Ham really stumped Bill Nye the science guy when he told Bill that wearing clothes was started by God east of Eden. Bill thought we might have come from Mars....

 

[1689Dave]

Psalms 58:3.

Yet Jesus taught, ". . . Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." (As it relates to the need to be born over, John 3:3-4)

“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” Psalm 58:3 (NCPB)

 

[Derf B]

“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” Psalm 58:3 (NCPB)

Isaiah 7:16 (KJV) For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.


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[Calminian]

Look at a great idiom of Hebrew language. In the day you eat of that tree - what?

מות תמות

Dying (mooth) you will die (h'mooth)

They began dying that day. Until then, there was no death! No animal had been killed (A&E were vegetarians; bloodshed only after sin)

That day . . . death began, and they began dying.

That will preach.

Period.

 

[percho]

Why did God say to Adam that he would die on the day that should he eat of the forbidden fruit when he clearly did not die on that day? It never seemed quite satisfactory that God meant that he would only begin to die after the Fall happened, that Adam would not die until almost a millennium later. I am not denying that this was also true, that there was certainly a great change in nature from that very time of disobedience. But this does not really account for all of what was implied in the divine prohibition. And it dances around the phrase "in that day".

First of all, there must be a distinction between what God threatened and what He carried out.

Second, we do not need to go far afield to imagine what the Hebrew here might mean. We have the context to guide us. Specifically, in order to know what is meant by "in that day" we only need to see how the phrase is used in a nearby parallel verse. Satan told Eve, Gen. 3:5:

"God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Now, are we also going allow for a time lapse here? I think not. The eye-opening was immediate. It happened on that day - just as Satan said. (On this point the Serpent was correct, although he connived to let Eve connect the other dots according to his own plan.)

So neither was a lapse of time with the death. death happened that very day. But for Adam and Eve it was not a personal death. It was a substitutionary death. This brings us the third point, to Genesis 3:21:

"The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."

What were these garments of skin? They were from animals that had to be killed. The animal (or animals) had to die because of the sin of Adam and Eve. This was the beginning of the sacrificial system. How did Abel later know just how to perform an acceptable sacrifice? He must have learned it from his dad. And Cain, for whatever reason, seemed to not put as much stock into this.

In Genesis we have two faint pictures of the redemption story, the Protovangelion in Genesis 3:15 and this one in verse 21.

Adam did not die physically that day. That death that was threatened against him and Eve was a comprehensive death. Physical, spiritual, and eternal. If God had not provided clothing for them, if they had not put on that clothing, they would have died in every way that very day.

But, thank God, He allowed them to put on that clothing - just as we put on Christ, the Lamb of God.

In my humble opinion, on that day, at that moment, "and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat," the man made of the flesh, of the dust of the ground, with his only life being (spirit) breath from God, dying 730 years later he would die, the breath from God would return to God and the man would be dead.Dying thou dost die.

At that moment any hope of eternal life would come from being redeemed from death.

IMHO God before the world began gave that promise for his Son to be born of a virgin woman, and become obedient unto
dying thou dost die. The Christ. IMHO that is the faith of God

IMHO Jesus of Nazareth, born of the virgin Mary - became, through sufferings, the Obedience of Faith; Wherefore God (the Father) highly exalted him, made him the firstborn out of the dead. The heir of God, the Son, inherited all things including the promise of God who cannot lie. Therefore we can receive the adoption of sons.

Hebrews 5:7-9 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,
V 10 having been addressed by God a chief priest, according to the order of Melchisedek,
Phil 2:8,9 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross, wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that is above every name,

That is my understanding of death and life.
Just death
and
just life.

 

[percho]

Psalms 58:3.

Yet Jesus taught, ". . . Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ." (As it relates to the need to be born over, John 3:3-4)

In reality isn't the thought there the born again from above, children.

Wednesday night my 12th grandchild was born, IMHO presently, right now, he must be born from above (again) to see and or enter and or inherit the kingdom of God.

Sorry did not read your last line.

 

[percho]

This is my belief as well. On that day death entered the world and death became a certainly (Adam would surely die).

Do you draw a distinction between death entering the world and God subjecting Creation to futility (did Adam's sin introduce death to the world of man while God Himself subjected the world to futility)?

I'm trying to place Romans 8:20 alongside Genesis 3 and wondering what, if not death and decay, "futility" means in Romans.

I believe Rom 8:20 preceded Gen 3. I believe Adam was made to die because sin and death were coming. I believe the death would be necessary to God dealing with the devil, who IMHO was already present on the earth.

Redemption was also already coming. Not, if necessary, it was going to be necessary.

 

[timtofly]

1 Corinthians 15:51 (KJV)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Can a spiritual body, whatever that looks like, which is incorruptible, die?
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Can a demon die? To me the death of both soul and spirit in the lake of fire is the second death. They do not have a spirit though, it is a demon, total darkness, in opposition to the spirit, of glorious light.

 

[percho]

To my thinking they mean the same.



We do not know what the story would have been had Adam and Eve not sinned. But I do not see how you would think that the death of an animal means that A and E would have "eventually died anyway."

To me it makes perfect sense that the whole system of sacrifice and covering for sins started that very day. And, looking through a variety of commentaries, I see I am not alone in seeing it this way. (Not that this necessarily makes it right)

Here is my most honest thought of Gen 2,3.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: < under law) for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

so that the law, indeed, is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good.
for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold under the sin; <I believe that is Adam and all after him.
The law that was transgressed that brought the need to be redeemed. That put all under sin.
but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. Gal 3:22
and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, that those under law he may redeem, that the adoption of sons we may receive; and because ye are sons, God did send forth the spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, 'Abba, Father!' Gal 4:5,6

It appears to me the only law that mattered was the one given Adam.

A good question might be, What law was the Son of God born (come) of woman, born (come) of, under?

 

[Derf B]

Can a demon die? To me the death of both soul and spirit in the lake of fire is the second death. They do not have a spirit though, it is a demon, total darkness, in opposition to the spirit, of glorious light.

I don’t know if a demon can die, but a demon is not physical, and only physical things die as far as I can tell. The lake of fire IS the second death; it isn’t just the CAUSE OF the second death. Unbelievers are resurrected (meaning their bodies are living again) before they are thrown into the lake of fire.


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