What Happened To mankind in the fall of Adam ?

[JonC]

We are born as sinners, and we continue to sin, as all od us are accountable to God.Is not a belief in humans having sin natures one of the orthodox truths of Christianity?

No, it is not. Orthodox Christianity holds that we all sin, that sin is birthed when temptation and the desires of the flesh conceive (James 1). The idea that Jesus came with a nature different from ours, that our illness, suffering, and physical mortality was foreign to Christ was denounced as unorthodox centuries ago.

Christ was born with and into the same humanity you and I share, yet without sin.

 

[tyndale1946]

No, it is not. Orthodox Christianity holds that we all sin, that sin is birthed when temptation and the desires of the flesh conceive (James 1). The idea that Jesus came with a nature different from ours, that our illness, suffering, and physical mortality was foreign to Christ was denounced as unorthodox centuries ago.

Christ was born with and into the same humanity you and I share, yet without sin.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

No, it is not. Orthodox Christianity holds that we all sin, that sin is birthed when temptation and the desires of the flesh conceive (James 1). The idea that Jesus came with a nature different from ours, that our illness, suffering, and physical mortality was foreign to Christ was denounced as unorthodox centuries ago.

Christ was born with and into the same humanity you and I share, yet without sin.

Orthodox Christianity states that all humans , as a direct result of the fall of Adam, have received in us at conception/birth a nature thgat is sinful, that is self willed to be against God, to have our own way!
Chapter 6

 

[JonC]

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Brother Glen

Exactly. Christ's qualification as our High Priest is dependent on him being "one of us".

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly. Christ's qualification as our High Priest is dependent on him being "one of us".

he was just as one of us, in that he was a human being, but totally different from any of us, as he was without a sin nature, and was God!

 

[JonC]

Orthodox Christianity states that all humans , as a direct result of the fall of Adam, have received in us at conception/birth a nature thgat is sinful, that is self willed to be against God, to have our own way!
Chapter 6

Nowhere does Scripture state our nature itself is sinful.

It is with this hypothetical nature that you stray from the Bible in your Christlogy. You have decided our nature is sinful therefore Christ was not truly "flesh" (as we are). You have decided that since death and sickness came with the Fall Jesus was not subject to illness and death as we are.

This is NOT orthodox thinking. 8n fact, your view of Christ and this "third" nature was deemed heresy centuries ago.

Christ shared in our "infirmities", he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nowhere does Scripture state our nature itself is sinful.

It is with this hypothetical nature that you stray from the Bible in your Christlogy. You have decided our nature is sinful therefore Christ was not truly "flesh" (as we are). You have decided that since death and sickness came with the Fall Jesus was not subject to illness and death as we are.

This is NOT orthodox thinking. 8n fact, your view of Christ and this "third" nature was deemed heresy centuries ago.

Christ shared in our "infirmities", he was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.

The 1644/1689 Reformed Confessions seem to be agreeing with me though on this issue!

 

[JonC]

The 1644/1689 Reformed Confessions seem to be agreeing with me though on this issue!

Scripture doesn't.

The idea that Jesus had a "different kind" of nature, one that is foreign to mankind, is simply heresy. The idea that Jesus came in the flesh, but a kind of flesh that couldn't suffer the illnesses, pains, and natural death that is common to man is heresy. NOTHING you say can change that fact.

The reason earlier Christians declared your view heresy is because it denies biblical redemption on the grounds of the Incarnation. It, in fact, redefines the incarnation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture doesn't.

The idea that Jesus had a "different kind" of nature, one that is foreign to mankind, is simply heresy. The idea that Jesus came in the flesh, but a kind of flesh that couldn't suffer the illnesses, pains, and natural death that is common to man is heresy. NOTHING you say can change that fact.

The reason earlier Christians declared your view heresy is because it denies biblical redemption on the grounds of the Incarnation. It, in fact, redefines the incarnation.

The reason why we are subject to all of those things is that we have been corrupted by the fall, are sinners, subject to the Curse and fall, jesus NEVER was!

 

[JonC]

The reason why we are subject to all of those things is that we have been corrupted by the fall, are sinners, subject to the Curse and fall, jesus NEVER was!

like I said - old heresy repackaged.

Odd. My dog got sick and we had him put down last year (he was 17). Do dogs sin?

Anyway, for what sin do you believe Job suffered?

 

[Yeshua1]

Odd. My dog got sick and we had him put down last year (he was 17).

Anyway, for what sin do you believe Job suffered?

You Asked: Did Jesus Assume a Fallen Human Nature?.
You are in agreement with 2 theologians, while my understanding is with every Reformed/Baptist one pretty much!

 

[JonC]

You Asked: Did Jesus Assume a Fallen Human Nature?.
You are in agreement with 2 theologians, while my understanding is with every Reformed/Baptist one pretty much!

I wonder how many Reformed Baptists here believe that Jesus came in a "different flesh", a different human nature than is common to man. I wonder how many believe Jesus never got sick and would have lived eternally on this earth had he not been killed. I wonder how many believe Jesus did not share in our infirmity but instead was a different type of human.

I bet more rely on Scripture than you think.

 

[Yeshua1]

I wonder how many Reformed Baptists here believe that Jesus came in a "different flesh", a different human nature than is common to man. I wonder how many believe Jesus never got sick and would have lived eternally on this earth had he not been killed. I wonder how many believe Jesus did not share in our infirmity but instead was a different type of human.

I bet more rely on Scripture than you think.

How many reformed christians agree with you that humans do not have a sin nature, or that Jesus dod not have to come via the Virgin Birth to avoid the corruption of His flesh that the fall gave to all of us?

 

[JonC]

How many reformed christians agree with you that humans do not have a sin nature, or that Jesus dod not have to come via the Virgin Birth to avoid the corruption of His flesh that the fall gave to all of us?

All of the ones that are sticking to Scripture on the point. I know of very few today who hold the biological sin view of Christ's birth (and I'm including you).

 

[Yeshua1]

All of the ones that are sticking to Scripture on the point.

So that would mean a vast majority of reformed and Baptist theologians missed this?

 

[JonC]

So that would mean a vast majority of reformed and Baptist theologians missed this?

No. It would mean that you are in the minority. Orthodox Christians denounced the notion of Jesus coming in a different "flesh" centuries ago. This is a superstition on your part - an old heresy.

 

[Yeshua1]

No. It would mean that you are in the minority. Orthodox Christians denounced the notion of Jesus coming in a different "flesh" centuries ago. This is a superstition on your part - an old heresy.

Wonder why Calvin/Hodgh/Grudem/Berhof/turretin/et all all saw jesus as being boen without a sin nature, his flesh not corrupted by the fall as all of us were?

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly. Christ's qualification as our High Priest is dependent on him being "one of us".

Are you saying that Jesus was not one of us if he did not have our sin nature?

 

[Yeshua1]

I wonder how many Reformed Baptists here believe that Jesus came in a "different flesh", a different human nature than is common to man. I wonder how many believe Jesus never got sick and would have lived eternally on this earth had he not been killed. I wonder how many believe Jesus did not share in our infirmity but instead was a different type of human.

I bet more rely on Scripture than you think.

So did the authors of the Confessions of the faith, and they agreed with my take on this!

 

[Aaron]

Creation is a response to sin occurring at all. Satan sinned long before Adam. God can be glorified by saving sinners but that is not to say God made us to sin so He could save us.. Totally wrong

God created the universe to glorify the Son. It was not a response to the fall of the angels.