What happens during the Rev 20 - 1000 years?

[BobRyan]

Starting this thread based on a comment from another thread.

Perhaps also on another aspect, I believe that the SDAs have a wrong view of the gospel of the Kingdom of God. They preach that the world will be desolate during the 1000 years, while the Scriptures teach that Jesus is to return to refresh and restore and to reign upon the earth during the 1000 years.

During the 1000 years there are no humans alive on earth because in Rev 19 you have all mankind killed that is not taken to heaven.

Rev 20:4-5 tells us that the "First resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19-20 second Coming of Christ. (almost everyone agrees on this point.)

And 1Thess 4 tells us that the saints are raised in the first resurrection - not the 2nd one.

The saints are taken to heaven at the first resurrection - which happens according to John at the Rev 19-20 2nd coming - and Christ and the saints go to heaven.

Rev 19 says the armies of the earth are killed "And the rest are destroyed" by the sword of His mouth - His Word.

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The times of refreshing is a reference to the "latter Rain" that Joel speaks of. Peter is stating that the sins are blotted out at a specific point in time related to pre-second-coming events described by Joel.

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Kind regards
Trevor

In the time of Isaiah - Israel had not yet rejected their Messiah - the glorious future for Israel was still ahead of them - should they accept the Messiah at His first coming - and prior to the 490 years of Dan 9 being ended for the Jews.

But they failed - so the promises remain - but they get fulfilled in Rev 21 when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth - and Christ rules over all the nations on earth - the nations of the saints.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

During the 1000 years there are no humans alive on earth because in Rev 19 you have all mankind killed that is not taken to heaven.

Rev 20:4-5 tells us that the "First resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19-20 second Coming of Christ. (almost everyone agrees on this point.)

And 1Thess 4 tells us that the saints are raised in the first resurrection - not the 2nd one.

The saints are taken to heaven at the first resurrection - which happens according to John at the Rev 19-20 2nd coming - and Christ and the saints go to heaven.

Rev 19 says the armies of the earth are killed "And the rest are destroyed" by the sword of His mouth - His Word.

I can appreciate how you read the above, but I believe that Revelation 19 and 20 need to be also read with both the other OT and NT Scriptures and I will consider again Acts 3:19-21 and Isaiah 2:1-4 again below. But also note especially the following:
Revelation 19:15 (KJV): And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
You seem to indicate that all the people from the nations will be destroyed, but here it says he shall rule over them.

The times of refreshing is a reference to the "latter Rain" that Joel speaks of. Peter is stating that the sins are blotted out at a specific point in time related to pre-second-coming events described by Joel.

I relate the times of refreshing and restoration to the kingdom of God upon the earth during the 1000 years.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Notice the above, these things were spoken by all God’s holy prophets, and an example is Isaiah 2:1-4.

The following are other examples of the kingdom of God on earth during the 1000 years:
Daniel 2:35 (KJV): Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Daniel 2:44 (KJV): And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV): 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Notice that there will be a remnant left of the nations and this needs to be compared with Revelation 19 and Isaiah 2:1-4.

In the time of Isaiah - Israel had not yet rejected their Messiah - the glorious future for Israel was still ahead of them - should they accept the Messiah at His first coming - and prior to the 490 years of Dan 9 being ended for the Jews.

But they failed - so the promises remain - but they get fulfilled in Rev 21 when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to earth - and Christ rules over all the nations on earth - the nations of the saints.

In effect the SDA position on many OT prophecies is to dismiss what these prophecies actually say, and ignore much of the detail. Isaiah not only prophesied of the kingdom in Isaiah 2:1-4, but throughout his prophecy he clearly states that Israel would reject their Messiah. The best known of these is Isaiah 53. Isaiah 6 also depicts the failure of Israel to respond and Jesus in Matthew 13 and the Apostles John in John 12 and Paul in Acts 28 quote Isaiah 6:9-10, showing that this is a central theme of the Book of Isaiah and the NT. Isaiah 49:1-6 is also important as it gives the overall picture of Jesus’ ministry, where Israel fails initially to respond, the gospel is then preached to the Gentiles and ultimately Israel is also gathered in.

Micah 4:1-3 is almost identical to Isaiah 2:1-4, but Micah reveals that the nation of Israel would be scattered before the establishment of vv1-3 when they would be regathered. The reason for their scattering is because they rejected their Messiah at his first coming.
Micah 4:6-7 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
During the 1000 years there are no humans alive on earth because in Rev 19 you have all mankind killed that is not taken to heaven.

Rev 20:4-5 tells us that the "First resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19-20 second Coming of Christ. (almost everyone agrees on this point.)

And 1Thess 4 tells us that the saints are raised in the first resurrection - not the 2nd one.

The saints are taken to heaven at the first resurrection - which happens according to John at the Rev 19-20 2nd coming - and Christ and the saints go to heaven.

Rev 19 says the armies of the earth are killed "And the rest are destroyed" by the sword of His mouth - His Word.

Greetings again Bob, I can appreciate how you read the above, but I believe that Revelation 19 and 20 need to be also read with both the other OT and NT Scriptures and I will consider again Acts 3:19-21 and Isaiah 2:1-4 again below. But also note especially the following:
Revelation 19:15 (KJV): And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
You seem to indicate that all the people from the nations will be destroyed, but here it says he shall rule over them.

In Rev 14 we see again the grape gathered for the wine press of the wrath of God and this is how the Bible defines "ruling with a rod of iron".

In Rev 3 both God and the saints rule over the wicked with a rod if iron - and crush them under their feet.

The rod of iron - has no mercy, no forgiveness.

In 1Cor 6, and Rev 20:1-5 the saints judge the wicked world and fallen angels with Christ during the 1000 years. Once every case is decided they return as we see in Rev 20 and 21 "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven" and the wicked surround the city.

Then all the wicked nations are judged by their deeds and cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

That is all "rod of iron" activity and it encompasses all the wicked.

Thus as the OT writers state "I looked and I saw NO man". And the "hills moved to and fro" and the clouds blot out the sun and stars. All this happens during the millennium where the corpses are from one end of earth to the other - and no one is there to bury them.

Once the "First resurrection" of Rev 20:1-5 is accepted as the point where the "Dead in Christ rise FIRST" in 1Thess 4- this all fits perfectly.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[awaken]

"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him." (Daniel 7:27)

"If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!" (1 Corinthians 6:1-3)

"Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us" (2 Timothy 2:11-12)

"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations -- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' -- just as I have received authority from my Father." (Revelation 2:26-27)

"with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

So the raptured Christians will co-reign on earth with Jesus for 1,000 years, along with the Old Testament saints and the Tribulation martyrs. Our individual positions of authority in the Millennial Kingdom will be determined by our earthly works of faith and obedience.

 

[BobRyan]

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind


Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killedwith the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh



Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleyswith your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, [/quote]


It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

 

[awaken]

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind


Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killedwith the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh



Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleyswith your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,


It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

That sounds like the tribulation!

 

[awaken]

What will life in the Millennium be like for us? Well, if you are a Church Age Christian then your physical body will be made immortal at the Rapture before the seven-year Tribulation begins (it doesn't matter if you are alive or dead at the Rapture):
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

So if you are a Christian then you will receive your glorified, immortal body at the Rapture when you are taken up into heaven (before the seven-year Tribulation begins). You will then return to the earth with Jesus at the Second Coming, and you will co-reign with Him during the Millennium. If you receive salvation during the Tribulation but you don't survive until the Second Coming, then you will receive your immortal body along with the rest of the Tribulation martyrs shortly before the Millennium begins.

 

[BobRyan]

This is what happens at the rapture.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed --in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21)

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)

So if you are a Christian then you will receive your glorified, immortal body at the Rapture when you are taken up into heaven (before the seven-year Tribulation begins).

As Matt 24 points out - the time when God "gathers his elect from the four corners of the earth" is "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days".

As 1Thess 4 points out "The dead in Christ rise FIRST"

As Rev 20:4-5 points out "The FIRST resurrection" takes place at the Rev 19-20 second coming "event".

That means that the saints are taken to heaven with Christ -and by Christ at the Rapture which happens at the Rev 19 second coming where as Jesus said in John 14 "IF I GO away I will come AGAIN and receive you unto Myself that WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

The wicked are all destroyed according to Rev 19 "The REST" (those not slain in the army that fights against Christ) are "killed by the sword that comes from His mouth" - the WORD of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

I cannot agree with your conclusion despite your quotation of Revelation 19, Ezekiel 32:4-8, Jeremiah 4:23-26, 5:33, Zephaniah 1:18, Isaiah 24:1-3, 17-21. These passages need to be read in conjunction with passages such as Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14:16-17 and Micah 4:1-7, which I quoted in an earlier post. Also you did not comment on the clear testimony of Isaiah who spoke of Israel’s failure and yet could prophesy in the terms of Isaiah 2:1-4 that necessitates their restoration during the 1000 years.

Of your quotations, note the verses immediately following Jeremiah 4:23-26:
Jeremiah 4:27-29 (KJV): 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
This is speaking of the desolation of the land of Judah as a result of the Babylonian invasion, not the complete destruction of everything upon the earth during the 1000 years as you suggest.

If there is a second application of Jeremiah 4:23-26 it was in AD 70.
Luke 21:24 (KJV): And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The 2300 years of the down-treading of Jerusalem by the Gentiles will be accomplished with the Second Coming of Jesus. This is the time of the restoration of the Jews to their land and their conversion. We have a token of this in the time period of BC334 to AD 1967 when the Jews regained the city of Jerusalem out of the hands of the Gentiles.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Greetings again Bob, I cannot agree with your conclusion despite your quotation of Revelation 19, Ezekiel 32:4-8, Jeremiah 4:23-26, 5:33, Zephaniah 1:18, Isaiah 24:1-3, 17-21. These passages need to be read in conjunction with passages such as Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14:16-17 and Micah 4:1-7, which I quoted in an earlier post. Also you did not comment on the clear testimony of Isaiah who spoke of Israel’s failure and yet could prophesy in the terms of Isaiah 2:1-4 that necessitates their restoration during the 1000 years.

I admit that I see no reference at all in Isaiah 2 to the 1000 years.

Isaiah lived at the time of the Babylonian captivity for Israel. FUTURE to Isaiah's day there would be a restoration - the Jews would be set free from captivity. It did happen. Everyone agrees.

And had they been faithful to God in doing that - their future would have been very different.

Dan 2 says nothing about a future restoration for Israel after the cross.

Romans 9 says that all of the glorious promises given to Israel are now given to the church. They will be fulfilled for us when the saints come back to earth as Rev 20 and 21 depicts. Until the second coming you have the Dan 7 - persecuted church model which is an expansion on Daniel 2.

The model you are using has no place for the OT text on the millennium where the earth is brought back to a somewhat "Formless and void" state.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Of your quotations, note the verses immediately following Jeremiah 4:23-26:
Jeremiah 4:27-29 (KJV): 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. 29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
This is speaking of the desolation of the land of Judah as a result of the Babylonian invasion, not the complete destruction of everything upon the earth during the 1000 years as you suggest.

The Babylonian captivity was only a small fraction of the total devastation predicted during the millennium by Jeremiah.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

The "Earth was not formless and void" during Babylonian captivity or Roman captivity.

The slain by the Lord was NOT "from one end of the earth to the other" in Babylonian captivity just as the flood was not a local flood - that "covered the earth".

The dead that were slain at the captivity - were buried.

During the millennium they are not. There is no one here to do it.

If there is a second application of Jeremiah 4:23-26 it was in AD 70.
Luke 21:24 (KJV): And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The Romans did cause local destruction - but they did not make the earth "formless and void" and the bodies were not "From one end of the earth to the other" and the bodies in that local area - were buried.

The millennial fulfillment will be equal to or greater than the statements in Jeremiah.

The 2300 years of the down-treading of Jerusalem by the Gentiles will be accomplished with the Second Coming of Jesus. This is the time of the restoration of the Jews to their land and their conversion. We have a token of this in the time period of BC334 to AD 1967 when the Jews regained the city of Jerusalem out of the hands of the Gentiles.

Kind regards
Trevor

2300 years (in the day year model) of Daniel 8 will be a new thread. Good subject.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I admit that I see no reference at all in Isaiah 2 to the 1000 years.

Isaiah lived at the time of the Babylonian captivity for Israel. FUTURE to Isaiah's day there would be a restoration - the Jews would be set free from captivity. It did happen. Everyone agrees.

And had they been faithful to God in doing that - their future would have been very different.

Dan 2 says nothing about a future restoration for Israel after the cross.

Romans 9 says that all of the glorious promises given to Israel are now given to the church. They will be fulfilled for us when the saints come back to earth as Rev 20 and 21 depicts. Until the second coming you have the Dan 7 - persecuted church model which is an expansion on Daniel 2.

The model you are using has no place for the OT text on the millennium where the earth is brought back to a somewhat "Formless and void" state.

I will answer all the above by referring you to Micah 4:1-7 which is parallel to Isaiah 2:1-4. Micah 4 speaks of the regathering of Jacob after dispersion, and then the "LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever Micah 4:7. Both Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 speak of “the last days” – when is this?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Hello again Trevor.

The restoration of Israel out of Babylonian and Persian captivity was future to both Isaiah and to Micah.

The coming of the Messiah mentioned in Dan 9 would have been after the restoration of Israel from Babylonian captivity and had the Jews accepted their Messiah a glorious future did await them.

The prophecy of Is 2 does look forward to full restoration from Babylonian captivity since that is what is on the horizon.

However Micah 4:1 is speaking of the destruction of all the wicked on the entire planet - as we see in Rev 20 and the lake of Fire.

And Micah 4:5-6 speaks of the coming of Elijah which Christ said in Mark 9:11-13 and in Matt 11:13-14 was ministry of John the baptizer in Christ's day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

The restoration of Israel out of Babylonian and Persian captivity was future to both Isaiah and to Micah.

The coming of the Messiah mentioned in Dan 9 would have been after the restoration of Israel from Babylonian captivity and had the Jews accepted their Messiah a glorious future did await them.

The prophecy of Is 2 does look forward to full restoration from Babylonian captivity since that is what is on the horizon.

The terms of Isaiah 2:1-4 were not fulfilled after Israel returned from the Babylonian captivity. There have been wars since their return. Isaiah 2:1-4 can only refer to after the return of Christ.

However Micah 4:1 is speaking of the destruction of all the wicked on the entire planet - as we see in Rev 20 and the lake of Fire.

And Micah 4:5-6 speaks of the coming of Elijah which Christ said in Mark 9:11-13 and in Matt 11:13-14 was ministry of John the baptizer in Christ's day.

You are confusing Micah with Malachi. Could you please consider Micah 4:1-7? Please refer to Posts #2 and #12. Micah 4:1-3 is almost identical with Isaiah 2:1-4 and then speaks of the need to restore Israel from captivity. Again this cannot be the return from Babylon but speaks of the present and future gathering of Judah and Israel to their land.

If I can spell out our basic different perspective, you seem to endorse the SDA view that discounts many of the prophecies concerning literal or natural Israel and their glorious future because they rejected their Messiah. I believe that interwoven with these prophecies is the fact that they would reject their Messiah, that as a result they would be scattered again, and this would necessitate their re-gathering again. Micah 4:1-7 is only one sample of many of these. Another prophecy that speaks of the regathering of Israel in unbelief of their Messiah, and then their judgement and conversion in the latter days is Ezekiel 37 to 39.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Hello again - TrevorL

At the Rev 19-20 return of Christ the "dead in Christ" are raised first at the "First resurrection" just as 1Thess 4 states.

After the Millennium in Rev 20 the wicked are raised in what has to be the 2nd resurrection.

I think everyone would agree that after the Lake of Fire event in Rev 20 - there can be no more war.

And I think everyone would agree that the wicked surrounding the city of the saints at the end of the 1000 years - is an act of war.

Thus the part of Isaiah 2 that might not apply to the future return from Babylon -- 'no more wars on all of planet earth" would certainly apply to the time after the millennium even in your model.

The debated point is whether or not it is pointing to something being on earth during the Millennium and not at the future-to-Isaiah-and-his-readers return of Judah out of Babylon.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

However Micah 4:1 is speaking of the destruction of all the wicked on the entire planet - as we see in Rev 20 and the lake of Fire.

And Micah 4:5-6 speaks of the coming of Elijah which Christ said in Mark 9:11-13 and in Matt 11:13-14 was ministry of John the baptizer in Christ's day.

You are confusing Micah with Malachi. Could you please consider Micah 4:1-7? Please refer to Posts #2 and #12. Micah 4:1-3 is almost identical with Isaiah 2:1-4 and then speaks of the need to restore Israel from captivity. Again this cannot be the return from Babylon but speaks of the present and future gathering of Judah and Israel to their land.

First of all it was indeed my mistake in reading Malachi 4 but writing about Micah 4.

Both Isaiah and Micah are contemporaries and are writing before the restoration of Israel out of Babylonian captivity.

http://www.bible-stories-library.com/prophets-of-the-bible.shtml

http://www.oldtestamenthistorytimeline.com/

So with both of those authors writing before Babylonian captivity even begins and predicting not only captivity but also return from captivity it would be hard to find a reference for "return from captivity" that was millennial and after the 2nd coming instead of the next - return from captivity.

Given that Israel is not in captivity even today - it would be hard to make the case.

If I can spell out our basic different perspective, you seem to endorse the SDA view that discounts many of the prophecies concerning literal or natural Israel and their glorious future because they rejected their Messiah.

I tend to take into account the fact that some of these prophets are writing before Israel has come out of captivity AND before they rejected the Messiah. Thus they did have a future return from captivity ahead of them and they did have their long promised coming Messiah ahead of them.

There was every reason for the prophets to get them to focus on such items of good news.

I believe that interwoven with these prophecies is the fact that they would reject their Messiah, that as a result they would be scattered again, and this would necessitate their re-gathering again.

The "Regathering" from Babylon was in the form of the captors allowing Judah to leaven. That already happened.

Neither Micah nor Isaiah doom Israel to rejecting her Messiah and John the baptizer makes this clear in his message to Israel at the time of Christ.

They all all Israel to repent - and to accept the Messiah and none of them promise God's blessing while in rebellion.

All the prophets from Moses on are pretty clear that continued rebellion will not bring blessing and restoration.

Micah begins in chapter 1 telling Judah that rebellion will not bring blessing.

Micah 1
5 All this is for the rebellion of Jacob
And for the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the rebellion of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
What is the high place of Judah?
Is it not Jerusalem?
6 For I will make Samaria a heap of ruins in the open country,
Planting places for a vineyard.
I will pour her stones down into the valley
And will lay bare her foundations.
7 All of her idols will be smashed,
All of her earnings will be burned with fire
And all of her images I will make desolate,
For she collected them from a harlot’s earnings,
And to the earnings of a harlot they will return. 8 Because of this I must lament and wail,
I must go barefoot and naked;
I must make a lament like the jackals

12 For the inhabitant of Maroth
Becomes weak waiting for good,
Because a calamity has come down from the Lord
To the gate of Jerusalem.
13 Harness the chariot to the team of horses,
O inhabitant of Lachish—
She was the beginning of sin
To the daughter of Zion—
Because in you were found
The rebellious acts of Israel.

The idea that rebellion brings blessing is foreign to the context that Micah sets.

The same can be found in Micah 2

2 Woe to those who scheme iniquity,
Who work out evil on their beds!
When morning comes, they do it,
For it is in the power of their hands.
2 They covet fields and then seize them,
And houses, and take them away.
They rob a man and his house,
A man and his inheritance.

3 Therefore thus says the Lord,
“Behold, I am planning against this family a calamity
From which you cannot remove your necks;
And you will not walk haughtily,
For it will be an evil time.
4 “On that day they will take up against you a taunt
And utter a bitter lamentation and say,
‘We are completely destroyed!
He exchanges the portion of my people;
How He removes it from me!
To the apostate He apportions our fields.’

The idea that rebellion brings destruction is all through Micah.

in Micah 3 - he reminds them that rebellion only brings destruction - not blessing.

Hear now, heads of Jacob
And rulers of the house of Israel.
Is it not for you to know justice?
2 “You who hate good and love evil,
Who tear off their skin from them
And their flesh from their bones,
3 Who eat the flesh of my people,
Strip off their skin from them,
Break their bones
And chop them up as for the pot
And as meat in a kettle.”
4 Then they will cry out to the Lord,
But He will not answer them.
Instead, He will hide His face from them at that time
Because they have practiced evil deeds.

Malachi 3 ends with a curse - that is pronounced because of rebellion

11 Her leaders pronounce judgment for a bribe,
Her priests instruct for a price
And her prophets divine for money.
Yet they lean on the Lord saying,
“Is not the Lord in our midst?
Calamity will not come upon us.”
12 Therefore, on account of you
Zion will be plowed as a field,
Jerusalem will become a heap of ruins,
And the mountain of the temple will become high places of a forest.

All this would happen of course during Babylonian captivity. But the good news is that men such as Daniel, and Ezra and Nehemiah would be raised up to lead the people in repentance, revival and reformation and so - out of Babylonian captivity.

It is the same thing in Isaiah 1 - where Isaiah says God will not hear their prayers and will find their worship services to be an abomination because "I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly".

In Isaiah 1 the only door back - is via repentance and returning to God.

Just as we see in Joel 1 and 2.

In Micah 4 we have hope and a view of the future restoration of Israel that would follow Babylonian captivity and is brought about due to the prayers of confession and repentance while in captivity as we see in Dan 9:1-12.

Michah 4 says nothing about Judah being blessed or restored in a state of rebellion against God.

Ezek 1-24 is all about condemnation, punishment and judgment brought upon Israel for rebellion against God.

Ezek 18 makes it very clear that the one who sins - dies without exception.

Ezek 36 then looks to future restoration after Babylonian captivity - and shows the revival, reformation, spiritual purity goes hand in hand with restoration.

Paul says in Romans 2 that when Israel lives in rebellion against God and is blessed - it is a cause of blasphemy against the name of God. Paul says the "name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you" .

Because they are sinning against God.

When God out of concern for His name restores them - he restores them as we see in the case of Daniel, Ezra, Nehemah - in repentance and revival, returning to God with all their heart. Not in open revolt and rebellion against God.

Ezek 36
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you.

However when OT prophets speak of a the entiire earth destroyed - and "I looked and behold -there was no man" they speak of the millennium of Rev 20 where Christ killed all the wicked in Rev 19, and takes all the saints (which includes saved Jews) to heaven as in 1Thess 4 - leaving the earth empty.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

Thus the part of Isaiah 2 that might not apply to the future return from Babylon -- 'no more wars on all of planet earth" would certainly apply to the time after the millennium even in your model.

I accept that the term “neither shall they learn war any more” is applicable to the beginning of the Millenium and continues for the 1000 years of peace upon the earth. I believe that Isaiah 2:1-4 is one of the most important prophecies in the Bible. Apart from the preliminary Isaiah 1, it is in effect the opening vision of the whole Book of the Prophets, written and spoken by Isaiah the first and greatest of the writing prophets. It gives a vision of the kingdom, and is thus the goal of the work of all the prophets and what the Lord Jesus Christ will achieve. It is certainly a more motivating vision than my estimate of what the SDAs promise, of sitting in heaven for 1000 years and examining the books of those that failed while the earth is desolate.

Given that Israel is not in captivity even today - it would be hard to make the case.

The partial return of the Jews from their dispersion is a well documented fact. The following indicates that this is a gradual process:
Joel 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
The captivity of Judah occurred in AD 70 and the reversal of the captivity of Judah which was in 1948, and that of Jerusalem was 1967. AD 70 and 1967 are significant dates with respect to Luke 21:24, but I believe there will be a short invasion of Judah and Jerusalem mentioned in Zechariah 14:1-2 when Christ will directly intervene. This also seems to be part of the times of the Gentiles mentioned in Luke 21:24.

I also believe that these two events precede the following:
Joel 3:9-14 (KJV): 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Notice above the similar terms as found in Isaiah 2:1-4, but here it is the reverse – they are preparing for war. These events are parallel with Daniel 11:40-45, Ezekiel 38-39, Zechariah 14 and Revelation 16:12-16, the Battle of Armageddon. The outcome of this is the conversion of natural Israel and the subjection of the remnant of the nations. Then Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-7 will be fulfilled, and these indicate the cessation of war and a time of peace.

Kind regards
Trevor