What happens first?

Yea, but you said "except my Father draw him". Now if you were quickened you had to be drawn by the Father and if you were dead then how did you know He was calling? I mean the Calvinist say the dead can't hear God or respond to Him and if you are dead too I just don't see the difference.

 

Justification, the cardinal principle of the Reformation, is the heart of the Reformed or Presbyterian faith as truly as it is of the evangelical or Lutheran doctrine. It refers to the divine act whereby God freely makes humans, who are sinful and therefore worthy of condemnation, acceptable before a God who is holy and righteous. "Justification is forensic (that is, it is "courtroom language"). We are declared, counted or reckoned to be righteous when God imputes the righteousness of Christ (an "alien righteousness") to our account. In other words, the Judge of all the earth declares us "not guilty" when we believe because Christ was pronounced "guilty" for us on the cross. We are not first made righteous, then declared righteous; we are declared righteous by grace through faith in Christ, then made righteous! When we believe, God imputes Christ's righteousness to us 'as if' it were our own. However, it is HIS righteousness, that is why Paul says in Romans 1:17 that there is a righteousness that has been revealed from God, a righteousness not of our own, but a righteousness revealed from God and freely given to those who do not work, but to those who believe." - By Charles R. Biggs


Means that all men have a right to the tree of life if he will only believe.

 

I don't know if I can support the view of this link you provided. He said, "In contrast, historic Christianity, as best explained by Augustine and the Reformers, would reject the above position and honor the more biblical position of monergism. This position teaches that salvation is entirely a work of God; That man can contribute nothing toward the price of his salvation and that one is saved wholly and unconditionally by grace through faith. That faith itself is a gift of God (Eph 2:8, John 1:13, 2 Tim 2:25, Phil 1:29, Hebrews 12:2, 1 John 5:1, Rom 3:24, Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:26-27) which is not the cause, but the witness of God's regenerative grace having worked faith in the inner man."

1. He admits his view is contrary to popular belief.
2. He basically is saying faith is a response to the regenitive work of Christ.

Need I remind each of us of the thief on the cross, he believed by saying when you come into your kingdom, remember me.

Jesus response was basically you just qualified to come with me. What did that thief do to qualify? Was it because he sinned by stealing? Maybe? Was it just because he didn't antagonize Christ like the other fella? Maybe? Was it because he believed Christ was heading to his kingdom???

 

The question is what or how but WHY. Why did one thief repent while the other did not? Was he better? Wiser? Nobler?... or did God move him positively in a way that the other guilty sinner was not moved?

 

No, the question is according to your belief, "how could the theif repent if he was dead and could not know of the things of God. According to you he can't even respond for he is dead."

 

I will amen that!

 

The goodness of God leadth thee to repentance.

Are you trying to say that she was "good" enough to figure it out? BTW, the circumstances around healing miracles don't necessarily serve well as a sound basis for developing doctrine. Technically, this woman would have still been under the OT economy. She would have had to make sacrifice for her sin until Christ ended animal sacrifice with His own life.

 

She was no different than anyone else it is just that she "believed", which you do seemed to grasp. I guess all the work that Jesus and the Apostles did was in vain then if no one was believing in the "New and Living Way". He came to His own but they received Him not, but as many as did He gave them "power" to become the sons of God. It didn't say anything about killing a bull or anything but "except you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins and where I am you cannot come".

 

Nope. I believe they absolutely do have will to make a decision to choice... and because "there is none righteous, no not one" that choice will always be to the flesh until the spirit is born again.

Well actually... that is what the Bible says. We just accept it.

Nope. This is an obvious case of someone stripping a verse of its context then using it in a way that was not intended.

Further, if you think this undermines total depravity then you either don't understand the verse or else the concept of total depravity.

Quite obviously. Then verse 15 goes on to say that faith comes by hearing and "hearing by the word of God". What kind of hearing? Physical hearing?

If you think physical hearing then please tell me why two men of similar backgrounds can sit side by side and hear a clear presentation of the gospel and only one of them accept it. You must face a clear question... Why? What caused the one to be moved and the other to be unmoved? No one on your side of the debate has EVER given a straight answer to this question.

Do you know why? Because there are only two answers.

One, the man is somehow good enough on his own to make a contribution of faith. No matter how small you make that contribution... it IS the effective difference. Therefore you must acknowledge that you believe man is saved ultimately by his own merit. Christ's sacrifice is only sufficient to get man part of the way. He must finish the deal by his own meritorious act.

Two, God initiates the process by imparting spiritual life to the man. It is not man's own goodness that causes him to have faith but rather God's goodness that led him to repentance.

 

Or, God gave all men a choice of whom he would serve.
I guess there could be three answers. Are you saying God could of not made man where he could choose good or evil?

Some choice! He can choose evil but not good, that is not a choice so it makes you look bad to say he had a choice when all he can choose is evil. Do you know how long is a peice of rope?

 

What about the "creature being made subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope.

This is to all men saying that all men were created subjected to Hope, it is not just to some and left the rest out but all men were made the same from the beginning. That means that all men can if they will have that Hope (which is Christ), amen.

Another thing, we have the Bible to study. I for one do not need all those different writers you give and could care less what they say. It is like some on this board with minds going in all directions.

He that lacketh wisdom let him ask of God. Maybe you need to do that, what do you think?

 

Didn't know Calvinist believed that?

ZB; You almost are persuaded to be an Arminian.

 

I don't see how any saved person can examine their own salvation and not to the same conclusion as Spurgeon did. It baffles me. The only thing I can think is (1) they're too invested in their system to change, (2) they can't cogitate beyond the surface of their reality, or (3) their salvation experience doesn't line up with scripture.

 

What for some reason you fail to see is that we too did everything that Spurgeon said also. We didn't save ourselves, God did. We also were saved by Grace. We also are on our way to the same Heaven you aspire to. We also believe in the same God you do. We also believe that Jesus is the Christ as you do. We also believe that you are saved by Grace through faith but we don't turn them around as you do. We believe that God strives with all men apparently you don't. We believe God so loved the whole world, apparently you don't. We believe all men were created the same, apparently you don't. You say you don't understand why all don't see it the Calvinist way but we say how could some believe they are so special and above others when it comes to the chance to go to Heaven. You fail to see that if you believe what you say you do it is your belief and you could be completely wrong and miss the boat all together. Maybe Arminians are the chosen instead of Calvinist. What you think?