Brother Bob
New Member
I will be leaving you fellows now. You have entered the twilight zone.
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What happens if you die while you're sinning?
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James_Newman
New Member
The bible doesn't say this, baptists do.
Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The bible, by its wording, clearly implies that there are people coming up from death and hell who are written in the book of life. Else it would not qualify with whosoever was not found written in the book of life. If I told you that I took all the vegetables out of my refrigerator, and whatsoever was rotten I threw away, would you assume I threw away everything and had no good vegetables?
Revelation 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Were those believers who were reigning with Jesus weeping for a thousand years? Or was it this guy here:
Matthew 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Brother Bob
New Member
Thanks Claudia;
James_Newman
New Member
When you expound on scripture from the pulpit, do you call that 'putting your own spin on it?' Why do you not back up your argument with some scripture, instead of saying I'm right and these guys are nuts?
Brother Bob
New Member
james; The bible, by its wording, clearly implies that there are people coming up from death and hell who are written in the book of life. Else it would not qualify with whosoever was not found written in the book of life. If I told you that I took all the vegetables out of my refrigerator, and whatsoever was rotten I threw away, would you assume I threw away everything and had no good vegetables?
If that is not spinning I don't know what it is.
If that is not spinning I don't know what it is.
James_Newman
New Member
Hmmm, so how do you spin that verse?
Brother Bob
New Member
Revelation, chapter 20
"12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
"15": And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Just showing who all is going into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation, chapter 14
10": The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"11": And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever : and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
"12": And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
"13": And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
"14": And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
"15": And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Just showing who all is going into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation, chapter 14
10": The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"11": And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever : and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
James_Newman
New Member
Ok, those are the people who take the mark of the beast. I'll give you that one, if you take the mark of the beast, you probably aren't saved.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
DHK:Have you never lied since you have been saved? If you deny it you have just lied again.
"Let God be true but every man a liar" (Rom.3:4)
HP:Now here is an interesting quote in a maze of madness, (Brother Bob and Claudia excluded
) Lets take a man at the alter that has just got serious with God and has repented of all sins that are past and accepted the atonement of Christ by faith to cover those sins. If you asked him that question as he stood up from the alter, and he told you his heart was white as snow, would you call him a liar as well?
"Let God be true but every man a liar" (Rom.3:4)
HP:Now here is an interesting quote in a maze of madness, (Brother Bob and Claudia excluded
Hope of Glory
New Member
I'm responding to several quotes by several people, but I failed to note who said what. My apologies in advance for that:
While it is true that a saved person can commit any sin that anyone else can and still be saved, it is not true that it's OK to do so, and it's also not true that there is no accountability for it. ("Willful sin" and "unrepented sin" are both pretty serious.)
Sadly, many churches correctly teach that salvation cannot be lost, and they correctly teach that all you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved, but they come up short by failing to teach accountability for actions. Many people will suffer in the future because of these, not least of whom are those who fail to teach accountability.
The English word “repent”, from the Latin word “repoenitet”, simply means “to be sorry”, and that just does not convey the full meaning of the Greek word. John did not merely want people to be sorry, but to change their attitudes (literally, “after mind”) and he wanted them to change the way they acted. One of the problems is that we do not have a single English word that reproduces the exact meaning of the Greek word.
The Greek does have a word that means to be sorry, which is exactly our English word “repent”, and it is used in the NT in reference to Judas in Matthew 27:3, which says, “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders”. That’s a different Greek word, “metamelomai”, which simply means “regret”. Judas regretted what he had done, but it was too late to change, wasn’t it? The deed was done.
The Greek word that is translated as "repent" in many places means to turn back to the right path. Only someone who has been on the right path can turn back.
Many Baptist churches are dropping the "Baptist" part of their name for this reason. The Baptist denomination has abandoned the truth for whatever reason, so they want to distance themselves from such apostasy.
Get out your Greek text, and you will see that "their part" is what will be burned up, not they themselves.
So, a saved person cannot do the things of the world? Not at all? I notice you are wearing a tie. That is nothing but a mark of power among men! You are on a computer, and that's certainly a thing of this world.
That was my point. No one has a right to rip any of it out. Yet, when you try to apply all this stuff to spiritual salvation, that is precisely what you are doing, so you may as well dispense with the rest of it.
What you are advocating with this attitude is a license to sin. Many churches do a disservice to the members of their congregation by teaching this.
While it is true that a saved person can commit any sin that anyone else can and still be saved, it is not true that it's OK to do so, and it's also not true that there is no accountability for it. ("Willful sin" and "unrepented sin" are both pretty serious.)
Sadly, many churches correctly teach that salvation cannot be lost, and they correctly teach that all you have to do is believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved, but they come up short by failing to teach accountability for actions. Many people will suffer in the future because of these, not least of whom are those who fail to teach accountability.
"Being sorry" and "repenting" are two different things.
The English word “repent”, from the Latin word “repoenitet”, simply means “to be sorry”, and that just does not convey the full meaning of the Greek word. John did not merely want people to be sorry, but to change their attitudes (literally, “after mind”) and he wanted them to change the way they acted. One of the problems is that we do not have a single English word that reproduces the exact meaning of the Greek word.
The Greek does have a word that means to be sorry, which is exactly our English word “repent”, and it is used in the NT in reference to Judas in Matthew 27:3, which says, “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders”. That’s a different Greek word, “metamelomai”, which simply means “regret”. Judas regretted what he had done, but it was too late to change, wasn’t it? The deed was done.
The Greek word that is translated as "repent" in many places means to turn back to the right path. Only someone who has been on the right path can turn back.
Have you ever told an ugly girl that she's pretty? Have you ever told your wife that her dress looks nice when it doesn't? Have you ever told a "little white lie" in the name of diplomacy?
If he doesn't mind me answering for him, I can tell you that this was a common Baptist belief in the past. But, Baptists have abandoned many of their teachings. Some to fill the pews, some to hammer home evangelism at the cost of teaching those who are already saved, some out of ignorance, some out of convenience...
Many Baptist churches are dropping the "Baptist" part of their name for this reason. The Baptist denomination has abandoned the truth for whatever reason, so they want to distance themselves from such apostasy.
If you read the beginning of 2 Corinthians, you will see that it is addressed to saints, not to every man. 2 Corinthians, as most of the NT, contains things that are meant for those who are already saved.
So, have you ever found anyone who has eliminated sin from his life? Even sins of omission?
I bet you God knew, even way back then...
BrotherBob,
All we are saying is that there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are born of the Spirit. We are 100% secure, and we are feed from the Law.
We say that because that is GODS TESTIMONY concerning these things. God THUNDERS these great truths from His scriptures. FREEDOM from the Law. FREEDOM from condemnation. FREEDOM from conditional acceptance.
But after that we walk in the "newness of the Spirit", not the "oldness of the letter". And the Holy Spirit will be about the buisiness of producing FRUIT in the believers life.
We live our lives in complete freedom from the Law, but are not alone in that.
We have the Holy Spirit ALIVE IN US.
You guys believe that THE LAW must stay in force to keep people on the "straight and narrow"...in spite of the fact that Almighty God declares that we are now DEAD to the Law.
You are saying to Gods people...
"These are the donts, and if we catch you slipping up...CONDEMNATION BE UPON YOU! And if you dont get right REAL QUICK!...WE CAST YOU OUT, and declare that you NEVER WERE SAVED!!!"
And I'm not creating a carichature here, and you know it. You have said these things over and over and over and over again.
You have a complete lack of trust that Gods Holy Spirit can lead a person into Gods best for His life. Even if sometimes that believer makes mistakes and poor choices. In those cases God does not give up on them...as you do...but rather as a loving Father he lets the negative consequences naturally take their effect, and the believer learns from his mistakes, and grows thereby...while also developing a deeper love for His Father, because of His Fathers patience and wisdom in dealing with His child. God will sometimes chastise that child of His,(Hebrews 12) but never give up on them...as you do.
How it must grieve God to see His Pastors placing Gods people under a yoke that God has freed them from, while speaking evil of those promoting the freedom God has ordained for His people.
May God have mercy.
Mike
Where do you get this nonsense about us being mass murderes and mass adulterers, and habitual liars, etc etc etc.
All we are saying is that there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are born of the Spirit. We are 100% secure, and we are feed from the Law.
We say that because that is GODS TESTIMONY concerning these things. God THUNDERS these great truths from His scriptures. FREEDOM from the Law. FREEDOM from condemnation. FREEDOM from conditional acceptance.
But after that we walk in the "newness of the Spirit", not the "oldness of the letter". And the Holy Spirit will be about the buisiness of producing FRUIT in the believers life.
We live our lives in complete freedom from the Law, but are not alone in that.
We have the Holy Spirit ALIVE IN US.
What is it about the Holy Spirit that causes you guys to not trust Him so? You guys simply do not trust the Holy Spirit to grow a christian.
You guys believe that THE LAW must stay in force to keep people on the "straight and narrow"...in spite of the fact that Almighty God declares that we are now DEAD to the Law.
You are saying to Gods people...
"These are the donts, and if we catch you slipping up...CONDEMNATION BE UPON YOU! And if you dont get right REAL QUICK!...WE CAST YOU OUT, and declare that you NEVER WERE SAVED!!!"
And I'm not creating a carichature here, and you know it. You have said these things over and over and over and over again.
You have a complete lack of trust that Gods Holy Spirit can lead a person into Gods best for His life. Even if sometimes that believer makes mistakes and poor choices. In those cases God does not give up on them...as you do...but rather as a loving Father he lets the negative consequences naturally take their effect, and the believer learns from his mistakes, and grows thereby...while also developing a deeper love for His Father, because of His Fathers patience and wisdom in dealing with His child. God will sometimes chastise that child of His,(Hebrews 12) but never give up on them...as you do.
How it must grieve God to see His Pastors placing Gods people under a yoke that God has freed them from, while speaking evil of those promoting the freedom God has ordained for His people.
May God have mercy.
Mike
Claudia,
The same thing I asked BBob I'll ask you.
Why do you have such little faith in the Holy Spirit? Why do you feel that the Holy Spirit will be unable to do what God says He will do, and that is to produce fruit in the christian life...
God bless,
Mike
The same thing I asked BBob I'll ask you.
Why do you have such little faith in the Holy Spirit? Why do you feel that the Holy Spirit will be unable to do what God says He will do, and that is to produce fruit in the christian life...
And He says prior to that...
And...
Why must you guys keep hammering something...the Law...that God says we are freed from, while showing (((zero))) confidence in the Holy Spirit, because He works side by side with freedom?
God bless,
Mike
Im sorry, I did not mean to exclude it. Perhaps I am missing something out of this entire conversation.Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:
DHK:Have you never lied since you have been saved? If you deny it you have just lied again.
"Let God be true but every man a liar" (Rom.3:4)
HP:Now here is an interesting quote in a maze of madness, (Brother Bob and Claudia excluded) Lets take a man at the alter that has just got serious with God and has repented of all sins that are past and accepted the atonement of Christ by faith to cover those sins. If you asked him that question as he stood up from the alter, and he told you his heart was white as snow, would you call him a liar as well?
I have thought that people like DHK and others were trying to put forth the idea that an unrepentent sinner can be saved.
Yes OF COURSE EVERYONE HAS LIED...
But not everyone has reptented of their lies, sins...
Thats the difference.
So to use this thing on me like most people do who are trying to advocate that anyone can be saved no matter how much of a sinner that that are... namely the tired old line "well have YOU never sinned, Claudia??"
... its just so irrelevant that I dont even know what to say to them. OF COURSE I have sinned, that isnt the issue!
Then they always go "well Claudia, have YOU always kept the commandments?" OF COURSE I havent always kept the commandments...
I had the idea everyone was talking here about unrepentent sinners.
But Maybe I missed the whole boat and dont even know what everybody is talking about.
NO NO NO an unrepentent sinner cannot go to heaven.
YES YES YES Claudia has lied in her lifetime.
What else do you want me to say??
Claudia
And He says prior to that...
And...
Why must you guys keep hammering something...the Law...that God says we are freed from, while showing (((zero))) confidence in the Holy Spirit, because He works side by side with freedom?
God bless,
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]MIke,
Here again, like I said in my last post, perhaps maybe I am misunderstanding this entire conversation? I THOUGHT we were talking about UNREPENTENT SINNERS.
Of course I believe the Holy Spirit can do its work in the life of the Believer. But NO The Holy Spirit WONT do its work if someone stops believing and refuses to repent. There is such a thing as greiving away the Holy Spirit.
Then you talk about your "liberty" but yet again, I thought this entire conversation was about using your liberty to walk in the flesh and to do tnhe things of the flesh, and the Bible says those who walk in the flesh are not in the Spirit and are UNDER CONDEMNATION.
As far as "not under the law" goes, Ive explained this over and over on this forum, or at least tried to....
the Bible says we are not under the law if we are walking in the Spirit... then it says when we have the fruits of the Spirit that "against these there IS no law"
This means that we are no longer under the "law of sin and death" meaning the penalty or condemnation of the law anymore IF we walk in the Spirit... because now we have the FRUITS of the Spirit and thus are in effect FULFILLING the law... "against such there IS NO LAW"
The fruits of the Spirit ARE THE SAME AS the Law.
Understand???
If you walk in the Spirit you arent stealing, you arent committing adultery, worhsipping idols, you have love, joy, peace, kindness... etc and so on...
You are DOING the law along with its underlying foundation, which is LOVE... Jesus said on these two hang the entire law, love God and love your neighbor..
walking in the Spirit means just that... it doesnt GET RID OF the Law... it fulfills the law... thus the Bible says
Romans 8
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Understand? "The law of sin and death" is like GRAVITY... If you drop something, it falls to the floor... if you sin, you will die... the PENALTY of sin is death
but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made me FREE from WHAT? WHAT??? does it say free from the law??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Go read it again
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
free from the law of sin and death. I am now walking in the Spirit and no longer doing the deeds of the flesh,, so whats the result?
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Im not any longer under condemnation of the Law... WHY? because Im keeping it now!!!
Its so simple, Mike, why dont you all understand this concept???
And He says prior to that...
And...
Why must you guys keep hammering something...the Law...that God says we are freed from, while showing (((zero))) confidence in the Holy Spirit, because He works side by side with freedom?
God bless,
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]MIke,
Here again, like I said in my last post, perhaps maybe I am misunderstanding this entire conversation? I THOUGHT we were talking about UNREPENTENT SINNERS.
Of course I believe the Holy Spirit can do its work in the life of the Believer. But NO The Holy Spirit WONT do its work if someone stops believing and refuses to repent. There is such a thing as greiving away the Holy Spirit.
Then you talk about your "liberty" but yet again, I thought this entire conversation was about using your liberty to walk in the flesh and to do tnhe things of the flesh, and the Bible says those who walk in the flesh are not in the Spirit and are UNDER CONDEMNATION.
As far as "not under the law" goes, Ive explained this over and over on this forum, or at least tried to....
the Bible says we are not under the law if we are walking in the Spirit... then it says when we have the fruits of the Spirit that "against these there IS no law"
This means that we are no longer under the "law of sin and death" meaning the penalty or condemnation of the law anymore IF we walk in the Spirit... because now we have the FRUITS of the Spirit and thus are in effect FULFILLING the law... "against such there IS NO LAW"
The fruits of the Spirit ARE THE SAME AS the Law.
Understand???
If you walk in the Spirit you arent stealing, you arent committing adultery, worhsipping idols, you have love, joy, peace, kindness... etc and so on...
You are DOING the law along with its underlying foundation, which is LOVE... Jesus said on these two hang the entire law, love God and love your neighbor..
walking in the Spirit means just that... it doesnt GET RID OF the Law... it fulfills the law... thus the Bible says
Romans 8
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Understand? "The law of sin and death" is like GRAVITY... If you drop something, it falls to the floor... if you sin, you will die... the PENALTY of sin is death
but the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has made me FREE from WHAT? WHAT??? does it say free from the law??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Go read it again
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
free from the law of sin and death. I am now walking in the Spirit and no longer doing the deeds of the flesh,, so whats the result?
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Im not any longer under condemnation of the Law... WHY? because Im keeping it now!!!
Its so simple, Mike, why dont you all understand this concept???
Brother Bob
New Member
HoG;
You got it right when you said the Baptist were leaving the "way" for they surely are and the testiments on here will attest to that. I hate to see the Baptist name go as some are doing but maybe some of them need to let it go for they are no longer Baptists at heart.
To the rest I say, to advocate such things as adultery, murder, lying, stealing to the saved is unsound doctrine and will be burned up as someone suggested that their works shall be burned up.
You got it right when you said the Baptist were leaving the "way" for they surely are and the testiments on here will attest to that. I hate to see the Baptist name go as some are doing but maybe some of them need to let it go for they are no longer Baptists at heart.
To the rest I say, to advocate such things as adultery, murder, lying, stealing to the saved is unsound doctrine and will be burned up as someone suggested that their works shall be burned up.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Oh those blessed inconsistencies!!
As I read this thread, and witness all the diversity of opinion between many of those that hold to the same basic tenants such as OSAS and the proof texts used to support that notion, it seems amazing to me that some, such as Brother Bob, can end up with conclusions so diverse form the logical ends of holding to such views. If one takes the notion of OSAS out to it’s (il)logical end, one cannot help but end up with ideas far removed from the truth of Scripture and the holy walk God requires out of believers as we have witnessed clearly by some.
What I am grateful for is that some, like Brother Bob, although inconsistent with some of the basic tenants he seems to staunchly hold to, at least sees the inconsistency between blatant sin and the walk required of the believer. All I can say is, Oh those blessed inconsistencies!!
What I cannot understand is how Brother Bob seems to be surprised at the illogical,sin inspiring ends presented by some on this thread. I have been listening to Christian radio and been in attendance to many Churches for years and have heard these basic ideas presented by some of the most notable Calvinists in the pulpit and on the radio today. I will never forget one program by the Chuck Swindall on the OSAS issue when he taught “Once a son always a son.” The conclusions he presented on that program were of no less amazing and contrary to the Word of God than anything I have witnessed on this thread. I have witnessed many other main line denominational speakers espouse ideas not dissimilar to what we have witnessed either.
It reminds me of a book written by John McAurthur(sp) entitled “The Gospel According to Jesus” were he starts out establishing his beliefs in line with orthodox Calvinism, then tries desparatly in the book to establish lordship salvation and to distance himself between his views and the logical ends of the notions he said he supported in the preface of his book. I cannot help but view that as being logically inconsistent, but I still proclaim, Oh those blessed inconsistencies!
When one holds to limited atonement, irresistible grace, total depravity, and OSAS, it is only logical to me that one will eventually fall into the ditch of maintaining or silently supporting the notion of a sinning religion as we have witnessed so clearly by some on this list. (Brother Bob, for one, being a welcomed exception
As I read this thread, and witness all the diversity of opinion between many of those that hold to the same basic tenants such as OSAS and the proof texts used to support that notion, it seems amazing to me that some, such as Brother Bob, can end up with conclusions so diverse form the logical ends of holding to such views. If one takes the notion of OSAS out to it’s (il)logical end, one cannot help but end up with ideas far removed from the truth of Scripture and the holy walk God requires out of believers as we have witnessed clearly by some.
What I am grateful for is that some, like Brother Bob, although inconsistent with some of the basic tenants he seems to staunchly hold to, at least sees the inconsistency between blatant sin and the walk required of the believer. All I can say is, Oh those blessed inconsistencies!!
What I cannot understand is how Brother Bob seems to be surprised at the illogical,sin inspiring ends presented by some on this thread. I have been listening to Christian radio and been in attendance to many Churches for years and have heard these basic ideas presented by some of the most notable Calvinists in the pulpit and on the radio today. I will never forget one program by the Chuck Swindall on the OSAS issue when he taught “Once a son always a son.” The conclusions he presented on that program were of no less amazing and contrary to the Word of God than anything I have witnessed on this thread. I have witnessed many other main line denominational speakers espouse ideas not dissimilar to what we have witnessed either.
It reminds me of a book written by John McAurthur(sp) entitled “The Gospel According to Jesus” were he starts out establishing his beliefs in line with orthodox Calvinism, then tries desparatly in the book to establish lordship salvation and to distance himself between his views and the logical ends of the notions he said he supported in the preface of his book. I cannot help but view that as being logically inconsistent, but I still proclaim, Oh those blessed inconsistencies!
When one holds to limited atonement, irresistible grace, total depravity, and OSAS, it is only logical to me that one will eventually fall into the ditch of maintaining or silently supporting the notion of a sinning religion as we have witnessed so clearly by some on this list. (Brother Bob, for one, being a welcomed exception
Brother Bob no one is "advocating" sinning. But for you to say that a Christian is incapable of doing such acts is way beyond naive.
If a person is capable of committing such acts before they are saved they are perfectly capable of committing them afterwards, becuase the same sin nature still resides within them.
If a person is capable of committing such acts before they are saved they are perfectly capable of committing them afterwards, becuase the same sin nature still resides within them.