There have been threads recently about 'going to heaven,' "soul sleep," the millenial kindgom, and the eternal torment of the wicked. This is a poll to see what Christians [at least self-identified thus] think about this in the simplicity of the poll function allowed on this site.
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What happens to a person at bodily death?
- Thread starter Alcott
- Start date
1 Cor 15:23,24 for even as in Adam < And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. (soul) Gen 2:7> all die < And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it., Ecc 12:7> so also in the Christ < and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law, Gal 4:4> all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, < And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is beginning, first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18> afterwards < because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren; Rom 8:29> those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
After the resurrection. Then the judgement. IMHO
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
After the resurrection. Then the judgement. IMHO
Jesus told the thief on the cross: "today you will be with me in Paradise." See Luke 23:43.
The other place to go is eternal separation with eternal torment. See Luke 16: 19-31.
The flesh goes back to the dust from whence it came. Genesis 3:19.
No time for sleeping or even a cat nap. Matthew 26:41.
Are we ready?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
The other place to go is eternal separation with eternal torment. See Luke 16: 19-31.
The flesh goes back to the dust from whence it came. Genesis 3:19.
No time for sleeping or even a cat nap. Matthew 26:41.
Are we ready?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Bro. James
I probably can't give a 'good' definition,.as scripture doesn't. Jesus does say God can destroy both body and soul in he'll (gihenna?). Spirit seems to mean respirate-- one is physically alive as long as one does it. but there is nothing about destroying the spirit after death.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. The soul "sleeps" as we see in John 11 "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake him" -- Resurrected at the 2nd coming - before the millennium starts.
2. Does not matter if the soul is that of a saved person or not ... it goes dormant - and is taken to heaven awaiting resurrection. "The Living know that tney will die - but the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5 -- "God is not the God of the dead" Matt 22
3. The lost soul sleeps - and will be raised after the 1000 years at the great white throne judgment.
4. Lost souls that a raised after the 1000 years will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment of Rev 20... and then God will "destroy them both body and soul" Matt 10:28
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
At death the spirit returns to God. The body rots decays returns to dust... is nothing.
The soul is the "person" and the person "sleeps" in death - John 11 "our friend Lazarus sleeps". That happens because the spirit and body are separated thus the soul "sleeps" - the person "sleeps" in death - the spirit goes dormant. 'They "have fallen asleep in Christ" 1 Thess 4.
It is either the dead person or his body that is described as 'sleeping,' simply because he will be awakened at the Last day. The soul or spirit is never described as 'sleeping' for the very good reason that it doesn't.
Luke 23:43. 'And Jesus said the him [the penitent thief], "Assuredly I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."'
Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8). Simple.
Our body physicvally dies, and immediately, the spiritual aspect of us now with Christ, awaiting to be glorified at second coming!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is never the body that sleeps -- unless they are speaking of your nightly sleep. Rather the body "decays" and returns to dust. In fact in 2 Cor 5:1-4 it is tossed away - so also is this maintained in 1Cor 15 -- that which is raised is NOT what was sown.
"The person" sleeps having a body that is dead - and a spirit that is separated from the body - dormant.
Luke 23:42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
Luke 23:43. 'And Jesus said the him [the penitent thief], "Assuredly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise."'
John 20 at Christ's resurrection "I have not YET ascended to My Father"
Absent from the body; AND TO BE - present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8) -- two different states and in 2Cor 5 the "unclothed" -- no BODY state is real..
Sleeping is the term the Bible uses to describe those who died in Christ, as while their body died, their soul/spirit is now with Christ!
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps" (John 11:11). In fact Lazarus was dead (v.14).
Daniel 12:2. 'And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.....'
2 Corinthians 5:8. 'We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.' No evidence whatsoever that this is two different states; rather it chimes in perfectly with Ecclesiastes 12:7.
One thing the penitent thief was not was a theologian. He had suddenly realised that the Lord Jesus was indeed what the sign above Him said in three languages-- the King of the Jews-- but He did not think it possible that He was already in His kingdom. Jesus put him right. "I already am in My Kingdom and this very day you shall be with Me in paradise!" The Lord Jesus had already been crowned and robed (John 19:2) and proclaimed as King (John 19:14), although in fact there was never a time when He was not King (Hebrews 1:8, 13 etc.; Hebrews 13:8; John 1:49; John 18:36-37).
The Lord Jesus uses the phrase, "Assuredly I say to you....." almost 100 times in the Gospels. Can you find one other place where He says, "Assuredly I say to you today....."? And what would it mean if He did? It would be totally meaningless; how could He say, "Assuredly I say to you yesterday......"? What a nonsense!! No, He tells the thief, "Assuredly I say to you, you will be with Me in Paradise this very day!"
And what has this (John 20:17) to do with anything? Mary was holding onto His body. He did not ascend bodily to the father for another 40 days.
They work around that saying about paradise but changing the ., so they would say that Jesus stated today to him, that one day they will be in paradise!
One of my favorite theologians asked a similar question
Rob
Calvin: "I wonder where we go when we die."
Hobbes: "Pittsburgh?"
Calvin: "You mean if we're good or if we're bad?"
Hobbes: "Pittsburgh?"
Calvin: "You mean if we're good or if we're bad?"
Rob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Nothing at all like "our friend Lazarus' BODY is asleep I go that I may wake IT".
Rather "our FRIEND Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake HIM".
2 Corinthians 5:8. 'We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.'
Three different states.
2 Cor 5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
1. In this house - alive but in a decaying tent
2 The unclothed state -- no body at all
3. The clothed stated - the immortal eternal body
1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. ...
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
clearly 3 different states. Alive in this earthly tent being torn down. Dead and clothed. then at the last trump given the immortal body.
No punctuation marks in Luke 16. "surely I say unto you today you SHALL be with Me in paradise" -- with John 20 confirming Christ had not yet gone to paradise even by the time of his resurrection.
Not true at all. He was at the low point - abandon by friends and crucified by enemies - and suffering under the weight of the sins of the whole world... promising salvation to the lost sinner on THAT day of his lowest "My God my God why have you forsaken Me" day -- is indeed "saying something" about his right and power to save to the uttermost.
But without that comma -- he was not promising that they would both be in heaven that day.
Is to be with Jesus in the paradise,
equal to,
greater than,
or less than,
being with Jesus in the kingdom of God?
To see and or enter the kingdom of God one must be born again. V 42 Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Was one of the malefactors while hanging the cross next to Jesus, that day, already born in the kingdom and the other was not?
It appears the malefactor who railed against Jesus believed, the Christ, could save him. What did he want to be saved from?
Hebrews 5:7,8? Did this saving actually take place? What obedience was learned? When did the saving take place?
Is comest in thy kingdom relative to the throne of David of Luke 1:32?
a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses Acts 2
equal to,
greater than,
or less than,
being with Jesus in the kingdom of God?
To see and or enter the kingdom of God one must be born again. V 42 Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Was one of the malefactors while hanging the cross next to Jesus, that day, already born in the kingdom and the other was not?
It appears the malefactor who railed against Jesus believed, the Christ, could save him. What did he want to be saved from?
Hebrews 5:7,8? Did this saving actually take place? What obedience was learned? When did the saving take place?
Is comest in thy kingdom relative to the throne of David of Luke 1:32?
a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne, having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses Acts 2
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
It is a distinction without a difference. They both happen at the 2nd coming
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Rev 2:7
Rev 20:4,5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Cor 15:22-24
Question?
Did/Do, all who are in the paradise of God, eating of the tree of life, reign with Christ for the thousand years?
Lord remember me when thou come in thy kingdom.
And said to him the Jesus, verily I am saying to you today, with me, you shall be in the paradise.
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν λέγω σοι σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐντῷ παραδείσῳ
Rev 20:4,5 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1 Cor 15:22-24
Question?
Did/Do, all who are in the paradise of God, eating of the tree of life, reign with Christ for the thousand years?
Lord remember me when thou come in thy kingdom.
And said to him the Jesus, verily I am saying to you today, with me, you shall be in the paradise.
καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς, Ἀμήν λέγω σοι σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐντῷ παραδείσῳ
Jesus was alive in the spirit before He was raised up again, correct?
So he was physically dead, but His spirit was still alive and active, announcing his victory to those in Bosom of Abraham, correct?
Luke 23:46 NKJV And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ”[fn] Having said this, He breathed His last.
That is where the spirit of Christ was, for three days and three nights, in the hands of the Father.
Luke 23: 52,53 NKJV This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before.
That is where the body was.
Psalms 16:10 NKJV For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 NKJV For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Commentary by Peter being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn] “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses - [fn] NU-Text omits according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ and completes the verse with He would seat one on his throne.Acts 2:29-32 NKJV
That is where the soul was.
Verse 33 NKJV “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Is that the spirit which had been commended into the hands of the Father?
Gal 1:1 NKJV Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)
1 Peter 3:18 NKJV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[fn] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, [fn] NU-Text and M-Text read you.
Rom 8:11 NKJV But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
That is where the spirit of Christ was, for three days and three nights, in the hands of the Father.
Luke 23: 52,53 NKJV This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before.
That is where the body was.
Psalms 16:10 NKJV For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 NKJV For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Commentary by Peter being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
“Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn] “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses - [fn] NU-Text omits according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ and completes the verse with He would seat one on his throne.Acts 2:29-32 NKJV
That is where the soul was.
Verse 33 NKJV “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Is that the spirit which had been commended into the hands of the Father?
Gal 1:1 NKJV Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead)
1 Peter 3:18 NKJV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[fn] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, [fn] NU-Text and M-Text read you.
Rom 8:11 NKJV But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.