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what happens To A True Christian Who Willfully Rejects Christ/UNbelief?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Robert Snow
New Member
:laugh::laugh: nothing at all,lol except the whole book of Romans.
good post mb...very insightful
maybe you can answer for Robert Snow...explain Romans 5
He obviously cannot.
As far as you go Robert;
You despise biblical truth....because you refuse to interact with it. You are unwilling or unable to do so. So you constantly lash out against truth.
Let me see you biblically explain romans 5....instead every day you make accusations that you cannot back up,and bear false witness against the saints.
No, I lash out against a false doctrine that makes God into a terrible monster, doing things more like Satan than God. Of course, the real God is nothing like the impostor Calvinism portrays Him to be. The true God is love and is full of mercy toward mankind. He wants His creation to love Him of their own free will.
I realize that the typical Calvinist is just caught up in the system and more than likely has pure motives. They have just allowed a false definition of sovereignty to color the way they view scripture. I actually feel somewhat sorry for them.
No, I lash out against a false doctrine that makes God into a terrible monster, doing things more like Satan than God. Of course, the real God is nothing like the impostor Calvinism portrays Him to be. The true God is love and is full of mercy toward mankind. He wants His creation to love Him of their own free will.
I realize that the typical Calvinist is just caught up in the system and more than likely has pure motives. They have just allowed a false definition of sovereignty to color the way they view scripture. I actually feel somewhat sorry for them.
Robert,
Once again you fail to address the verses in rom5, Instead you like Van before you make this terrible post;
If you are wrong,[and you are] you put yourself in the unenviable position of blaspheming the True and Living God,and His people.No, I lash out against a false doctrine that makes God into a terrible monster, doing things more like Satan than God.
those alive at the time of the apostles observed caution as here;
37After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
You are fighting against God,His word , and His people.
Romans 5:6 seems very clear Christ died for the ungodly, that would be everyone in the human race. So atonement by that verse is unlimited. Verse 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Christ died for sinners, who are sinners all mankind again we see unlimited atonement.
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Again justification is offered to all men verse 18, all mankind.
Many those who recive it will be made righteous why because they receive Christ by making a choice. It doesn't say God chose them to make that choice.
revmac,
I believe you miss the entire meaning of this passage in that you are mis-reading it. Look at who Paul addresses;
It is to believers, those who are justified,those who have peace with God.
He is explaining how God has translated us from death to life.
pay attention to the 'we' us in the passage
Let's break down Romans 5.
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
We (those who believe) are justified, justification means we are declared righteous how by faith whose faith our (the believers faith) but our justification is throough Jesus Christ of whom we have placed our faith.
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
We (those who believe) have access by faith to God's Grace, we stand on that Grace and rejoice.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
We glory in our testing because testing works to give us patience.
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
From patience we can then have experienc of restin on faith which brings hope.
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Our hope in salvation makes us not ashamed of the Gospel. God's love is in the hearts to those who believe by the power of the indwelling Spirit.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Now let's deal with this one in depth a little. First Paul speaks to he believer when we were without strength. The believer didn't have the strength to save ourselves so Christ did it all for the ungodly. The believer was ungodly before salvation, but so too is the unbeliever, so Paul is saying in due time Christ died for all the ungodly. Notice Paul changed from when we were without strength to Christ dieing for the ungodly. If he meant just believers he would have continued and said Christ died for us the ungodly. That would have been the terminology used but it wasn't. So Paul is showing unlimited atonement here.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Christ did what noone else would do he died for the ungodly.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Now he uses the terminology he didn't use in verse 6 while we believers were yet sinners Christ died for us. The terminology changed to show that yes we were sinners and Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Because we accepted the justification through faith by his blood we are saved from the penalty of our unbelief. We are vindicated in the Fathers sight bythe shed blood of the Son.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
We were enemies of God prior to salvation. But because of Christ work on the cross and our faith in Him we were reconciled. The removal of emnity between God and the believer. His resurection proves our salvation.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
We joy in God because the atonement for our sin has been accomplished.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Sin entered the world through Adam and death by sin and so death came to all mankind because of sin.
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
God's rules have always been the same but sin is not imputed to when the law isn't known.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Death reigned from Adam to Moses when the law was given.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
The offence of sin is not free but has been passed down, and death because of the offence, the offence disobeying God of which all mankind is guilty of. But god's Grace is a Gift which has come by one man Jesus Christ. That gift of GRACE abounds to many (i.e. those who believe).
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
The gift again is not as by the one Adam that sinned, the judgement for sin brought codemnation. But the gift of Salvation is free and brings justification to those who believe.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Since by Adam came death so for those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness we shall reign in life (eternal) by one Jesus Christ. Righteousness is imputed to us because of faith, just as it was to Abraham and all who believe.
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
The penalty of death came to all manind. The Righteousness which comes throuh Jesus Christ the free gift came (or is available) to ALL men unto jusification of life. By Christ all have the ability to be justified how by faith. Do all come to faith no, Paul says it is available to ALL. He changed his terminology again here, he didn't say the free gift is for us or dor those who believe, he said ALL.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
By Adam's disobedience evryone ever born except Jesus Christ was under the penalty of death and born spiritually dead. But by Cherit obedience in everyway to the Father many, notice Paul doesn't say we, shall be made righteous, all who believe are made or have righteousness imputed to them.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Once God gave His standard, His law the mark was set and no man except Christ has ever measured up to that standard. But Grace did much more abound, Grace has always and will always be the menas of salvation.
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sin sin has reigned through the Old Sin Nature in mans life and made us spiritually and leads to the second death, so Grace Reigns in the Believers new Spiritual life and avoidance of the second death (eternal life) by our Lord Jesus Christ.
revmac,
Glad to see I can agree with most of your post. I think the whole passage is speaking to believers however;your explanation
Paul does not believe in unlimited atonement.
You change it in your explanation to add the phrase.....all the ungodly
the whole passage up to this point we agree is speaking to the justified.
Paul has no reason to change it here. as you correctly state when we were without strenght Christ died ......for the ungodly....that is us , as you agree.
The fact that he continues in verse 8,with the christian demonstrates this.
Paul uses a similar idea in 1 tim 1 :15
Sinners and sinners alone are who God saves. He saves the ungodly.
But never all men,all sinners, or all the ungodly. There is no necessity to say that Jesus has died for all men without exception.
He has died for all men without distinction.
He has died for old, young, Jew , gentile,rich, poor,black, white, oriental,..all types of men...but never all men.
Glad to see I can agree with most of your post. I think the whole passage is speaking to believers however;your explanation
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Now let's deal with this one in depth a little. First Paul speaks to he believer when we were without strength. The believer didn't have the strength to save ourselves so Christ did it all for the ungodly. The believer was ungodly before salvation, but so too is the unbeliever, so Paul is saying in due time Christ died for all the ungodly. Notice Paul changed from when we were without strength to Christ dieing for the ungodly. If he meant just believers he would have continued and said Christ died for us the ungodly. That would have been the terminology used but it wasn't. So Paul is showing unlimited atonement here.
Paul does not believe in unlimited atonement.
You change it in your explanation to add the phrase.....all the ungodly
the whole passage up to this point we agree is speaking to the justified.
Paul has no reason to change it here. as you correctly state when we were without strenght Christ died ......for the ungodly....that is us , as you agree.
The fact that he continues in verse 8,with the christian demonstrates this.
Paul uses a similar idea in 1 tim 1 :15
A calvinist can say this verse to all men when being evangelistic.15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Sinners and sinners alone are who God saves. He saves the ungodly.
But never all men,all sinners, or all the ungodly. There is no necessity to say that Jesus has died for all men without exception.
He has died for all men without distinction.
He has died for old, young, Jew , gentile,rich, poor,black, white, oriental,..all types of men...but never all men.
not imputing their trespasses against them...this is only true of the justified. rom5:121And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins[/QUOTE]
not all people,His people...the ones given to him by the Father.
[QUOTE19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
]