What happens to those who haven't heard the Gospel?

[Daniel David]

Well, this thread hasn't taken a bizarre turn.

I remember Paul saying in Romans 5:13 that death reigned from Adam to Moses even without the Law. Could it be that people die based on their sin nature that they were conceived with? I think so. It seems that Paul said we have Adam's nature somewhere... oh yeah, in the previous verse.

Helen, denying people are born with a sin nature that has separated them from God is heresy.

Denying that people can be saved without hearing and/or seeing (sign language) the proclamation of the gospel is heresy.

Denying that God will definitely send his preachers to the elect is heresy (Rom. 10:14-17).

Denying the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to pay for all sins is heresy. You say he paid for everything except unbelief. Nice touch adding to Christ's atonement.

I could go on.

 

[Mrs.Frogman]

I agree the Gospel must be preached by the Spirit, and that God is pleased to use called preachers to this end. I do not think this is accomplished simply through a written work, such as simple reading of scripture, or of tracts designed to lead men to Christ.

Preaching of the Gospel is performed only through men who are called, but is only effective when it is done by the Spirit.

There is nothing in me, in just telling the message, or just witnessing the message. The work the Spirit is pleased to use is the preaching of the Word. Christ and Him crucified.

God shall raise up men to enter into the fields where this preaching is needed. Otherwise, those not hearing have nothing to believe; those believing are unable to believe in something they have not heard. (Rom. 10.14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

oops. sorry, didn't realize I was logged in as Mrs.Frogman, my mistake, brethren, my wife does not preach, as the Bible prohibits that, this post is the work of Frogman, I will try to be more careful in the future to prevent this mistake, and avoid confusion. Forgive me for this one.

God Bless.
(I agree with PTW's post, which got in just previous to my own, concur 100%)

[ November 20, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Mrs.Frogman ]

 

[Frogman]

Now Frogman is online.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[tyndale1946]

Just wanted to let Preach the word know I'm still around but I'm not going there!... Brother Glen

 

[JIMNSC]

PTW said - "So, according to Paul, people are saved through the proclamation of the written gospel."

Paul said - in Colossians 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

What did he mean by "which was preached to every creature which is under heaven?"

Paul also said - Romans 15:21  But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Is Paul saying that they that have not heard shall understand?

I could be primitive here in my thinking..

I hate to quote individual verses... they don't confirm the real context of the surrounding scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Larry, that means God would be depending on us to help Him save people. That is not acceptable to me. He is perfectly capable of working His way without us, and does. He knows what He is doing and He is the judge. I'm content to leave it at that.

I would prefer to say that God is ordaining that people preach the gospel so that the elect might be saved. That would indeed correspond with passages such as 2 Tim 2:8-10. And the direct answer to your question is Romans 10:14-17. It clearly says that men cannot be saved without faith in the gospel which they will not hear without a preacher who will not preach unless they are sent. You think that the God who created the universe can't somehow get the gospel preached to the elect. My God is bigger than that.

And to say that anyone goes to hell for their sin (except for the sin of rejecting the truth from God) is a heretical teaching. Jesus declared "It is finished" on the cross. The Bible says He died for the sins of all. Those sins are ALL atoned for, according to the Bible.

All sin is an insult to God. He did not leave that cumulative insult only partially taken care of.

So unbelief is not a sin? This is the quandary for you (that demonstrates how problematic, scripturally speaking, your position is): If unbelief is sin, and Jesus atoned for all sin (as you say), then unbelief is atoned for and no one will go to hell for it (thus proving you wrong). If unbelief is sin, and people go to hell for unbelief, then Jesus did not die for all sins in the manner you say. This causes a significant problem.

In addition, in your position, it appears the sin of unbelief is atoned for solely by human instrumentality of believing. That is unbiblical. Sin is atoned for by Christ, even the sin of unbelief. It is not atoned for by believing.

You say that "He did not leave that cumulative insult only partially taken care of" while admitting that the sin of unbelief was only partially taken care of and that by the people themselves rather than by Christ.

To deny that men go to hell for sin is unthinkable. I should cease to be amazed by stuff that I hear but I never am. Helen, you should know better, even with your soteriology.

[ November 20, 2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
Well, this thread hasn't taken a bizarre turn.

I remember Paul saying in Romans 5:13 that death reigned from Adam to Moses even without the Law. Could it be that people die based on their sin nature that they were conceived with? I think so. It seems that Paul said we have Adam's nature somewhere... oh yeah, in the previous verse.

"And Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Noah was righteous.

Righteousness is ONLY found in Jesus.

Melchizedek was before the Law was given to Moses.

You might stop and think, however, that the Law was clearly known before Moses. Abel knew to sacrifice, so did Job. Murder was deserving of capital punishment. People knew to worship only God. Even the Sabbath was known, for gathering manna six days a week and resting on the Sabbath, and it was called that, came before the giving of the Ten Commandments.

So before the Law was given to Moses in written form.... that's one thing.

However we have every indication from the Bible that people were quite aware of the requirements of the Law from the beginning...

And if Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, then people NEVER died because of their sins, which are certainly abundant, but rather for rejecting the truth, which is, as Jesus told us, Himself.

Helen, denying people are born with a sin nature that has separated them from God is heresy.

And lying is a sin, Preach. You know from our multitude of rounds over this that I have NEVER said anyone except Adam, Eve, and Christ came into this world without a sin nature. So please turn that one off.

Denying that people can be saved without hearing and/or seeing (sign language) the proclamation of the gospel is heresy.

In your terms, you are claiming that there was NNE saved by God for the four thousand years before Christ. That means you have included all the faithful in Hebrews 11 and more.

However, I agree with you because I know the Gospel was proclaimed from Adam on. I know it was in the heavens themselves, as the Bible attests. It's just that the name Jesus was not known. He was the Promise, the hoped for Messiah.
http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

Somehow, I doubt that you have read it. However the four of us who researched and wrote it are a physicist, an astronomer, an engineer, and a teacher. We were all not too shabby on the research. You might try reading the thing before you slam it again.

Denying that God will definitely send his preachers to the elect is heresy (Rom. 10:14-17).

Claiming that God loves some people and hates others from before conception is an insult to His character.

Denying the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice to pay for all sins is heresy. You say he paid for everything except unbelief. Nice touch adding to Christ's atonement.

Christ Himself said that every sin would be forgiven except the sin against the Holy Spirit. He defined the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Truth. Paul said in Romans 1 that those who suppress the truth are the recipients of God's wrath. Suppressing the truth is denying Christ in the long run, since Christ is the Truth. Christ Himself says that is the one sin that cannot be forgiven.

But you know something, Preach? You have seen me write this before. You knew exactly what I was talking about, so quit grandstanding, OK? Christ has atoned for ALL sins, but there is one which, atoned for or not, He cannot forgive. Or did you think atonement was the same as forgiveness?

I could go on.

Please don't. I'm tired of your insults, angry spirit, vituperation, etc. etc. I am not a heretic. I am a born again Christian, conservative mold, who denies the heresies of Calvinism.

[ November 20, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[Helen]

Larry, then you are amazed at Christ Himself, who said,

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands comdemned already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.
John 3:17-18

Those words are straight from Jesus.

And, like Preach, I have a feeling you are thinking atonement is the same as forgiveness. All sins were paid for. All. One, however, is not forgiven. That is exactly the sin mentioned above by Christ: unbelief.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Helen:
I am not a heretic. I am a born again Christian, conservative mold, who denies the heresies of Calvinism.

 

[Helen]

I think your attitude says all that needs to be said, Preach.

 

[Daniel David]

Helen, many people (apart from myself) have tried to help you in discussions. You misrepresent and/or do not understand Calvinism. You keep posting your christianized astrology. Your twisting of original sin is shameful but probably due to emotional reasons. You zeal is admirable but your lack of understanding isn't. You have been told the truth. Even in your answers you misrepresent me.

One example of what I actually said

Helen, denying people are born with a sin nature that has separated them from God is heresy.

Here is how you put it

And lying is a sin, Preach. You know from our multitude of rounds over this that I have NEVER said anyone except Adam, Eve, and Christ came into this world without a sin nature.

I said the sin nature separates people from God. You made it seem like I said you flat out deny original sin.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Helen:
I think your attitude says all that needs to be said, Preach.

I was laughing at the heresies of calvinism bit. I truly laughed out loud. If you understood it, you would see that it exhalts God.

There is no such thing as the sovereignty of man, Helen.

 

[Helen]

Have you read the article yet? It is HARDLY Christianized astrology!

If our sin nature separates us from God by itself, without sins being committed, then Christ died in vain.

edit: what sovereignty of man? If God has allowed me to choose something, how on earth or anywhere else does that make me sovereign over anything but my own choice? And that is by HIS permission.

[ November 20, 2002, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Larry, then you are amazed at Christ Himself, who said,

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands comdemned already BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF GOD'S ONE AND ONLY SON.
John 3:17-18

Those words are straight from Jesus.

And, like Preach, I have a feeling you are thinking atonement is the same as forgiveness. All sins were paid for. All. One, however, is not forgiven. That is exactly the sin mentioned above by Christ: unbelief.

No, I do not argue with Christ nor do I fail to comprehend the difference between forgiveness and atonement. I don't think you have any idea of the theological quandary that you are in. It doesn't even seem like you have any idea at all of the issues involved. Are you denying that unbelief is sin or are you denying that Christ's death was sufficient for all sin? Christ is saying that condemnation is lifted on the basis of belief; he is not saying that condemnation exists only for the lack of belief. Otherwise Rev 20:11-15 has no meaning. There, the unbelievers are cast into hell because of the "things written in the books." Those things are none other than their sins and it is what they are being thrown into hell for. You are reading Christ's word apart from the whole of Scripture. You cannot do that.

Punishment is impossible when atonement has been made. To suggest such is to declare God unjust by making him demand two penalties for the same sin (even if it is only unbelief).

You need to start combining some of your ideas and see the contradictions that you are leaving for yourself. Get a couple of good theologies and see how these things are sorted out.

 

[Helen]

Larry, if Jesus is the only way to forgiveness, and if a person rejects Jesus, then the person has rejected the very forgiveness offered. The person has consigned himself to hell.

As the Bible says, his unbelief condemns him. God doesn't have to. However God's wrath is poured out on those who reject the truth. Is this punishment or consequence?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
If our sin nature separates us from God by itself, without sins being committed, then Christ died in vain.

Actually, based on Paul's teaching in Rom 5, you have it backwards. Christ died in vain only if righteousness can be attained another way (Gal 2:21). We become righteousness the same way we became sinners: by imputation. If our sinfulness came by actual acts, then according to Romans 5, our righteousness can only come by actual acts. That would be hopeless. As it is, we have hope because of our original sin nature that was inherited from Adam rather than gained by action. Romans 5 is a beautiful passage on the reality and hope of original sin.

[ November 20, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Rev. G]

NOTE: I'm posting this without having read any of the previous posts. I'm just answering the question at hand.

"What happens to those who haven't heard the Gospel?" And they die without having received Christ?

They are lost. They are not lost for rejecting Christ, they are lost for their active rebellion against what God HAS revealed to them (see Romans 1-3).

Rev. G

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Larry, if Jesus is the only way to forgiveness, and if a person rejects Jesus, then the person has rejected the very forgiveness offered. The person has consigned himself to hell.

I don't disagree.

As the Bible says, his unbelief condemns him. God doesn't have to. However God's wrath is poured out on those who reject the truth. Is this punishment or consequence?

His sins are what condemn him. It is both punishment and consequence. Again in Romans 5, you see that the condemnation came from sin (which was not unbelief in the case referred to). Luke 20:47 and Matt 23:14 both refer to "greater condemnation" that results from sin (not unbelief). What is the use of "greater condemnation" if all condemnation is for the unbelief. Other passages could be referred to but you haven't even addressed Rev 20 yet.

[ November 20, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
original sin.

Pastor Larry, bad choice of words for this discussion.

Not everyone believes in its reality.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
If our sin nature separates us from God by itself, without sins being committed, then Christ died in vain.

Actually, based on Paul's teaching in Rom 5, you have it backwards. Christ died in vain only if righteousness can be attained another way (Gal 2:21). We become righteousness the same way we became sinners: by imputation. If our sinfulness came by actual acts, then according to Romans 5, our righteousness can only come by actual acts. That would be hopeless. As it is, we have hope because of our original sin nature that was inherited from Adam rather than gained by action. Romans 5 is a beautiful passage on the reality and hope of original sin.</font>[/QUOTE]Our responsiblity for our sins came about through the actual acts of known sin. That is consistent throughout the Bible, Old Testament and New. From Romans 5: "But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." Does that mean no law is in existence? Or does it mean the law is not known? Which?

Paul says, in Romans 7, two chapters later, it is when the law is not known. We can see from Genesis that the law was in existence long before Moses.

And again, we read, in the chapter you have referenced: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of ne act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

I often see Calvinists take the "all" from the first part of that (sinners) and the "many" from the second part (the saved) and try to compare/contrast them. That is poor exegesis.

Because of Christ, no one's sin nature separates them from God. It is the conscious, willful sin that does. And even that is atoned for. Therefore it is, after that, only the refusal to believe that leaves a person in that separated state. They are throwing the availability of forgiveness back in God's face. Finally, God says "OK, you want it; you got it." and the person is hellbound.