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What I wish the other side understood

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
While I am not Compatibilist, I have no problem affirming that the human will is involved when it comes to saving faith. Man willingly believes but only after his will has been liberated from the slavery of sin. Prior to becoming a Christian, an individual can only choose between good and evil in a relative sense. It is good to stop and help someone pick up the contents of a bag of groceries that fell on the ground. It is evil (bad) to steal a roll of Life Savers from the local Circle K. Within the Christian sphere good and evil has a different meaning. We understand from the word of God that the sinner cannot do anything that God considers to be good (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:9-12; 8:7; 1 Corinthians 2:14). The sinner is non posse non peccare (not able not to sin). The sinner is not posse non peccare (not able to sin). This is why I made the appeal to deal with the theology of the matter. How fallen is the human will? When Paul writes about the Ephesians pre-Christian state he says, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins". Paul was referring to the immaterial part of man of which the human will is part. According to Paul, that part of man is [spirtually] dead. A consequence of death is inability.

When we start considering some of the different views on determinism it is easy to obscure the unclouded truth that is right in front of our eyes. No decree of God can be thwarted. God works in, out, and through His creation "for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). As His children, we are the recipient of His beneficence no matter how He works His will. As God works His will of decree, does He nudge or prod us along as willing participants or are we drones that do as we are told? I think that depends on the circumstances. Certainly, Jonah saw both sides of God's will of decree at work. Here is where there is some level of mystery; how the will of Christians freely choose to serve God, while God's will takes precedence over all.
There are a few issues, I think.

First, your wording that "no decree of God can be thwarted". There is an issue with what is, and is not, decreed. Personally I do not have a problem here because I believe everything is decreed simply because everything has it's being through Christ and apart from Him does not even exist. But others may point out that they also affirm anything God decrees will be accomplished while also affirming God does not decree salvation.

Second, there is the reason sinners are not able to "not sin". Some attribute this to Adam (to a fallen nature) so that the flawed nature is ultimately tossed aside (one way or another). Others consider man's inability to be a matter of the will (men cannot "not sin" because man will not repent and turn to God). This second calls to mind Spurgeon's statement that some say they cannot because they will not, while ultimately the answer is they won't (turn to God).

Third, "death" in terms of a "spiritual death" is an illustration. The spiritually dead can do a lot of things, in their spirit. But they will not turn to God. It is at a minimum pushing the limits to declare that Paul's choice of words evidence an inability based on action rather than unwillingness.

So there are several things that are "in between" discussions that can very well separate opinions.

As far as my view of Compatibilism, it helps me just sit back and watch what I view as errors on both sides of the isle. It's a good place to be on this topic because I affirm everything you affirm but ignore what you deny. The same is true when considering the free-will people. And my answer can always be that I believe God is not man.
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ah, yes. "The controversy". Of course, it exists and it will continue to exist until we are in the presence of our Savior. The quest to be on the right side of the issue is not just to be on the right side of the issue. Many a flawed position has won the day because the proponent(s) was a skilled orator. I can think of a former Austrian corporal who was able to win a nation through hate disguised as patriotism. No. The quest to be on the right side of any doctrinal issue is to honor God and glorify His name.


John 15
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As far as my view of Compatibilism, it helps me just sit back and watch what I view as errors on both sides of the isle. It's a good place to be on this topic because I affirm everything you affirm but ignore what you deny. The same is true when considering the free-will people. And my answer can always be that I believe God is not man.

If you are at peace with that, fine. I am not.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
If you are at peace with that, fine. I am not.
I know you are not. Otherwise we would be at peace together :Wink.

What brings me peace is my belief that God's will is not like man's will, but is eternally "above" or transcendent and beyond our categories of thought.
 

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ah, yes. "The controversy". Of course, it exists and it will continue to exist until we are in the presence of our Savior. The quest to be on the right side of the issue is not just to be on the right side of the issue. Many a flawed position has won the day because the proponent(s) was a skilled orator. I can think of a former Austrian corporal who was able to win a nation through hate disguised as patriotism. No. The quest to be on the right side of any doctrinal issue is to honor God and glorify His name.

Hate disguised as religion ain't too far. Now its a Spiritual Superior Race, I am alive and everyone else is just soulless animals.
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I know you are not. Otherwise we would be at peace together :Wink.

What brings me peace is my belief that God's will is not like man's will, but is eternally "above" or transcendent and beyond our categories of thought.
Isaiah does write that God's thoughts are not like our thoughts. I am peace that I will never be able to plumb the depths of God. However, that which the Holy Spirit has revealed through the written word is ours to profit by.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
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Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
While I am not Compatibilist, I have no problem affirming that the human will is involved when it comes to saving faith. Man willingly believes but only after his will has been liberated from the slavery of sin.

This is exactly what the "other side" often gets wrong and misrepresents about the Calvinist/Monergistic/Doctrines of Grace/Reformed/Etc position. We do believe in free will. However, God is not the will of man without, as you said, being liberated by God. John 1:13
 
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