What if a pastor punches you?

[Benjamin]

I’m sure in God’s eyes that after the fiancé violated the man’s daughter it would be OK to further pursue the father to the letter of the law for his striking out in anger. It would probably be OK for the fiancé to claim physical distress while smiling for the week after and sue the father for the pain it causes him also. Heck he could probably find a few more legal loop holes too; surely following the secular laws to the fullest extent would return the honor and blessings lost in the couple’s relationship with God and the father and restore the pastor to righteousness.

 

[Benjamin]

Good thing we’re not under the OT law anymore it was strict also.

(Lev 21:9) And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

(Deu 22:20) But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

(Deu 22:21) Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Maybe violating a man’s daughter should be a criminal offense punishable by the authorities, it was in the OT law punishable by death, never saw that strong of a punishment for striking in the OT as a matter of fact it would have been justifiable in this case, but maybe one should just take advantage of the secular law and it’s authority and disregard the higher authority altogether after all that would be the righteous new age worldly view way to go just put it in the hands of the righteous police.

Maybe the Pators daughter violated the male involved, it is a two way street.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Good thing we’re not under the OT law anymore it was strict also.

(Lev 21:9) And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

(Deu 22:20) But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

(Deu 22:21) Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

Thank God for the Constitution and that we do not live under the Old Testament law!

 

[rivers1222]

StraightAndNarrow writes:
That's called assault and battery and should be referred to the police.
----------------------------------
Please, let me guess. One of the two following statements must are true. Either:
(1) You are just kidding, or,
(2) You are a lawyer.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

rivers,

Why is that so hard to believe. It is exactly assault & battery.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Maybe violating a man’s daughter should be a criminal offense punishable by the authorities, it was in the OT law punishable by death, never saw that strong of a punishment for striking in the OT as a matter of fact it would have been justifiable in this case, but maybe one should just take advantage of the secular law and it’s authority and disregard the higher authority altogether after all that would be the righteous new age worldly view way to go just put it in the hands of the righteous police.

There's nothing "new age" about refering to the police a case of assault and battery." I don't know where you're coming from. Do you believe that America is governered by law or vigilante action? Christ told us to submit to civil authorities and that means to submit to the law. If you strike me I won't hit you back. I'll let the law take care of it.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Benjamin:
Maybe violating a man’s daughter should be a criminal offense punishable by the authorities, it was in the OT law punishable by death, never saw that strong of a punishment for striking in the OT as a matter of fact it would have been justifiable in this case, but maybe one should just take advantage of the secular law and it’s authority and disregard the higher authority altogether after all that would be the righteous new age worldly view way to go just put it in the hands of the righteous police.

There's nothing "new age" about refering to the police a case of assault and battery." I don't know where you're coming from. Do you believe that America is governered by law or vigilante action? Christ told us to submit to civil authorities and that means to submit to the law. If you strike me I won't hit you back. I'll let the law take care of it. </font>[/QUOTE]My point is that in my eyes the offense to the Pastor’s daughter and to God much out weights the offense of the punch. The punch may leave a knot on the fiance’s head for a couple days and go away, but the doors that have been opened by the actions of the couple could last a life time. I believe sex is one of Satan’s most powerful weapons to turn people away from God’s will. A wonderful gift for a married couple to share together and be blessed by God has been violated. If the couple were then to decide not to get married to each other and married another later they have also thrown away the blessing of only having known their mate in that way, which opens up more doors. (Maybe Sally doesn’t make biscuits the same way as Jane did and Billy will be always thinking about what came out of the oven when Jane was cooking) That special intimacy is lost…anyway…

The pastor has little recourse because what was stolen is gone and loses his temper and hits the fiancé. If the fiancé had the least bit of respect for the family and even a clue of how wrong he was and how he hurt the father who loves his daughter dearly and wants the best for her, then he should take it like a man and ask forgiveness not go running to the “authorities” to get revenge just because he has that recourse, what a cowardly thing to do.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Benjamin, you are so wrong. Two points here:

1. We are assuming the fiance did not commit rape, that this was a consensual act (and probably not the first time).

2. If the young lady is old enough to be married (legal adult), then this was between her and her fiance, not between her, her fiance, and her dad. Nothing was "stolen" from the father.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There is likely not a policeman in this world who would pursue this as assault and battery. To somehow go from this to shooting somebody is so absurd it is hard to believe that someone brought it up.

The pastor was wrong. The fiance was wrong. The daughter was wrong. Take ownership and deal with the problems. Don't tie the legal system up over something this stupid.

The girl was wrong whether she was a legal adult or not. Even moreso if she was living at home.

There is absolutely no reason to press legal charges. IF this is a pattern in the man's life he should resign from his ministry. If this is a first time case, other action might be appropriate.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Tell you what Pastor Larry. Why don't you go punch someone and see if you don't get hauled in for assault. You are also wrong. The police can and do pursue perpetrators in these type of situations all the time.

As for wrong, yes it is morally wrong what the couple did, but if they are adults, in most jurisdictions consensual adult sex is not illegal, and where it is on the books, it is mostly not enforced.

 

[Flippo]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
The fiance should press assault charges against the father. Although, to keep peace in his new family, he probably wouldn't.

So instead of following Matthew 18 example we should keep the conflict going and cause a split in church? Yes what the pastor did was wrong, but if it was a one time thing and pastor is repentent, then forgiveness is the next step, not ratcheting up the situation.

Phil

 

[Pastor Larry]

Tell you what Pastor Larry. Why don't you go punch someone and see if you don't get hauled in for assault. You are also wrong. The police can and do pursue perpetrators in these type of situations all the time.

Why would I go punch somebody? I don't have a problem with self-control in that area. But the truth of the matter is that people punch people all the time, and it is usually does not lead to arrests for assault. Nor should it in this case. I know policemen, and they rarely prosecute in this case. There is no reason to do that here.

Let's not get off topic. What happens when the pastor punches you? IMO, he needs to answer some questions. I would be inclined to say he needs to resign and move on, but not necessarily. I am very confident that unless there was significant damage, or a long history, the polic do not need to be called, and in fact should not be called.

 

[Ulsterman]

All three parties in this tragic case have done damage to their testimony. It is unfortunate that some would now have their testimonies further trashed before the world by pursuing recourse through the legal system.

"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers." (1 Corinthians 6:1-6).

There is a clear need for repentance to greater or lesser degrees by all, followed by forgiveness and reconciliation. If this is achieved it may be the fiance can go ahead and marry the pastor's daughter - but it doesn't follow that he must marry her simply because he has been physically intimate with her.

Personally I think the notion that the fiance should pursue the pastor through the law as most unwise, and a rather moonstruck idea. What is it supposed to achieve?

 

[dianetavegia]

I disagree that the young man should not be allowed to marry the young woman. In fact, I would say, since they're already engaged, the wedding should be moved up and the young couple should receive church discipline which would include confession of their sins before the congregation. If the congregation so chose, the young man should lose his job.

The damage is done and refusing to allow this girl to marry her beloved might cause her to rebel, think horribly of herself and begin a downward spiral into sexual promiscuity. I suggest we need to show forgiveness toward this young couple because, there but by the grace of God, go I. (I have some experience with this. Remember that our daughter had a child out of wedlock with a young man who wasn't interested in marriage and then gave the baby up to us for adoption and lived a number of years in horrible promiscuity before becoming pregnant again and marrying the father of that child, whom she is now divorcing, 2 children later.)

1 Corinthians 7:36 But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry.

My point is that in my eyes the offense to the Pastor’s daughter and to God much out weights the offense of the punch.

Unless she was raped, she was party to this sin, hence no offense TO her.

 

[Benjamin]

As for wrong, yes it is morally wrong what the couple did, but if they are adults, in most jurisdictions consensual adult sex is not illegal, and where it is on the books, it is mostly not enforced.

Well if it’s not illegal then the “new age” carnal mind set must think it’s OK then and that’s who you prefer to have jurisdictional judgment by?

1. We are assuming the fiance did not commit rape, that this was a consensual act (and probably not the first time).

Now calling the Pastor’s daughter a whore; probably the same thing the chump fiancé is going to do after dumping her.

2. If the young lady is old enough to be married (legal adult)

Carnal

then this was between her and her fiance, not between her, her fiance, and her dad

Left out Someone

Nothing was "stolen" from the father.

Guess his daughter’s purity and his hopes for her to be righteous and blessed in her marriage was a gift to the young man.

My point is that in my eyes the offense to the Pastor’s daughter and to God much out weights the offense of the punch.

Unless she was raped, she was party to this sin, hence no offense TO her.

The fiancé should be defending her against sin (assuming the role of the head) not a co-conspirator in temptation, instead of protecting her he “offended” her.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Benjamin, how does saying it was consensual equate to calling the woman a "whore"?

I guess pastors should get special treatment and not be subject to the law. That is way too many clergymen get away with molesting children. People think they are above the law.

Pastors are people like everyone else, and are capable of committing crimes. When they do, that's when Sgt. Joe Friday steps in. He carries a badge.

queue music . . .

DUM DA DUM DUM.

 

[Pastor Larry]

No one is saying that pastors aren't subject to the law. I think you know that. It is wholly inappropriate to bring child molestation into this as well.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Well, if the consensus according to pastor larry is that it's OK to go around hitting people then I think the young man should defend himself. Hit the pastor back with his best shot. Put the pastor on the ground and then kick him for good measure.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What did I say that made you think the consensus was that it's okay to go around hitting people?? Let's review, shall we??

He lost his temper, a violation of hte pastoral qualifications. If this is a pattern of life for him, then he needs to go find another job outside the ministry. If this was a one time thing, then it needs to be confessed to all who know.

The pastor was wrong.

IF this is a pattern in the man's life he should resign from his ministry. If this is a first time case, other action might be appropriate.

What happens when the pastor punches you? IMO, he needs to answer some questions. I would be inclined to say he needs to resign and move on,

No one is saying that pastors aren't subject to the law.

Now, please highlight the part where I said it was okay to hit anyone. If you cannot highlight such a portion, or provide such a reference from the posts these quotes were taken from, then apologize for your unethical approach to this discussion.

Why is it that you had to go and make something up? You know very well that I did not say it was okay to hit anyone. You know very well that I said the pastor was wrong to hit someone. But for some inexplicable reason, you did the unChristian thing in trying to make it appear that I said something I didn't. You don't have to look me in the face and say it. You can hide behind some made up name and not have to accept responsibility for what you said. But it was wrong, just like what the pastor did.

The young man should not defend himself. He should confess his sin to God, to the girl, and to her father. He should repent and build walls of accountability so that it does not happen again. If he hits back, then he is as guilty of wrongdoing as the pastor was to hit him in the first place.

From now on, if you are going to participate in a conversation, do not make up what other people say. My words were very clear. There was no reason for you to assume some sort of consensus that it was okay to hit people.