What if a pastor punches you?

[StefanM]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Interesting position to not hold a person accountable for their actions because of their gender. It seems I recall God holding both Adam and Eve accountable for their actions in the Genesis account of original sin.

Also, I see no biblical warrant for holding one person responsible for another's sin.

 

[Pastor Larry]

"responsible to lead their wives to be godly"

Right on [thumbs] IF they are married [Eek!]

You think that will magically change when the ring is on the finger? If he is not doing it now, then he won't do it then.

Interesting position to not hold a person accountable for their actions because of their gender. It seems I recall God holding both Adam and Eve accountable for their actions in the Genesis account of original sin.

I am not saying she shouldn't be held accountable because of her gender. Again, go back and read what I said. Is that too much to ask? At the very beginning, I said she was wrong, and that the guy didn't do this by himself. She is wrong and should be held accountable. However, God holds the husband responsible for his wife. That is the clear biblical teaching of Scripture. Your own attempt at an example actually proves my point. What sin is mankind charged with? The sin of Adam, not the sin of Eve. They were both sinners and both suffered, but God went after Adam because he was the head.

You seriously need to read carefully what people say. Don't make it up.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Larry, you are a real flip flopper. You DID say the husband is responsible. I have not made anything up that you said. I guess you have taken so many sides to the position that it is hard to keep track of where you are coming from at any point in time.

I can't recall the verse, but I do recall somewhere in the NT where it says that the woman sinned, not man. You say God went after Adam as the "head". What about the fact that both were expelled, and the woman was given suffering in childbirth? You can't have it both ways.

 

[dianetavegia]

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

1 Peter 3:7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

This doesn't fit the situation but gives insight into the mindset of a young woman:

1 Timothy 5:11 But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry, 12 having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith. 13 And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not. 14 Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 For some have already turned aside after Satan.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Also, I see no biblical warrant for holding one person responsible for another's sin.

Romans 5 is still in the Bible isn't it?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, you are a real flip flopper. You DID say the husband is responsible.

Yes I did. However, you accused me of saying that the woman was not responsible. That I did not say. I explicitly said she was responsible.

I have not made anything up that you said.

See above.

I guess you have taken so many sides to the position that it is hard to keep track of where you are coming from at any point in time.[/qutoe]I have taken one position, that has been enlarged on in additional posts as the conversation progressed. Here is it:
1) The pastor was wrong to hit the guy. He has probably compromised his integrity to the place to where he needs to resign his ministry. He may nto have have. I don't know for sure because I am not a part of it.
2) The girl was wrong to have sex with her fiance. The pastor should have been equally as upset with her. She is responsible for her sin. (I said that in the very first post I made, as I recall).
3) The guy was wrong to have sex with the girl. By virtue of hte nature of God-ordained headship in the marriage relationship, the man is not only repsonsible for his own sin, but also responsible for not leading his future wife to be godly in this choice. He bears double responsibility as a person for his own sin, and as a man for those whom God has placed under his headship. He failed to lead.

I can't recall the verse, but I do recall somewhere in the NT where it says that the woman sinned, not man.

Not exactly what it says that I recall. It say that the woman was deceived. The man was not.

You say God went after Adam as the "head". What about the fact that both were expelled, and the woman was given suffering in childbirth? You can't have it both ways.

What is both ways about that? God went after Adam as the head. He also went after Eve as a guilty party. You seem to think that I said God went after Adam and not Eve. I said nothing of the kind, which a reread of my statements will show. (Again, please read what I said; don't read into things I did not say. If you are worried about something I did not say, then ask. Don't build on my silence). But back to the topic ... Eve was held responsible for her sin. Adam was held responsible for both of their sins because he did not step in to stop his wife from sinning, and he chose to sin on his own. When you read the NT, human sin is passed down through Adam, as our head. 1 Cor 11, Eph 5, 1 Peter 3 also give clear evidence of the headship of the man in marriage.

 

[dianetavegia]

Refering to them not being allowed to marry or forced to wait for marriage:

Matthew 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Soulman, is this Pastor of a specific teaching, i.e. Calvinism, Free Will, Arminian, etc? Seems like his response would be affected by his view of preordination.

[ June 20, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why would you say that, Diane? I am curious as to where you are going with it, and what relevance Matthew 12 has to it.

 

[dianetavegia]

My reference to Matt. 12 goes back to my contention that they should be allowed to marry and marry quickly. Should have ref'd Blackbird's remarks, sorry.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ok ... I agree with you on that issue, as I previously expressed. I was just curious ... of course, I still don't know what the theological persuasion has to do with it, but I am sure you do ...

 

[Magnetic Poles]

If she is of the age of majority, her father cannot forbid the marriage. People should be able to choose their life partner. It is nice if dad approves, but if he doesn't, it isn't his choice.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Not exactly what it says that I recall. It say that the woman was deceived. The man was not.

thanks Larry..that is the one I was thinking of.

 

[dianetavegia]

Ah, the theological persuastion...

Free Will might believe the couple was unsaved during the act and need to be 'saved again'.

Calvinist might believe God ordained the act.

Some baptist groups would believe it was not even a sin.

 

[AVL1984]

I know as a youth, I was hit by two of our youth pastors in the face (slapped if you prefer). Though I was very much the rebel in those days, they had no legal or moral right to hit me for ANY reason. They were not my parents.

As a grown up, I was attacked physically by three preachers. One was a former pastor whom several of us had caught in an adulterous relationship. Another was the pastor of the church where I and another man served as "assistant" pastors. His father later attacked me at work in the restroom, pushing me up the wall til my feet were dangling and then hitting me with his fist. I nearly lost my job over that one because I would not press charges and it was on my employers property. I don't believe it is right for a pastor to strike anyone unless it is totally in self defense or in defense of his family.

 

[OCC]

Turn your cheek and let him punch you there as well.

Then hit him on both his cheeks...and kick his rear ones.

 

[StefanM]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Also, I see no biblical warrant for holding one person responsible for another's sin.

Romans 5 is still in the Bible isn't it? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, and if I assume your theology, your argument stands. The problem is--I don't.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Isn't assuming my theology really beside the point? Would you actually deny that Romans 5 teaches that we became sinners in Adam? Our theology has to be based off what the text says, and when the text says that we are sinners in Adam, that ought to be good enough for all of us.

 

[AVL1984]

Amen!

 

[Benjamin]

So some would say the man has No responsibility to assume the leadership role until he is married? Then maybe he isn’t mature enough to be getting married and should get the rod of correction for his disobedience and have the foolishness put far from him. That is what a stick is for and I am going to have a big one when my daughter starts dating and I’m not afraid to use it. If she can’t teach him the meaning of TRUE LOVE; I will. Also whose responsibility is it then?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Benjamin,

If you carry through with using "a stick", you could (and should) end up in legal trouble. Worse, you run the risk of alienating your daughter.