What in the "World" does that word mean?

[Rockson]

if the sins of all men are forgiven and God's wrath is appeased for all men, why would they go hell?

I said why in my post : "One can have acquired benefits that belong to them in a covenant but if they don't take proper action to appropriate or receive they'll never have them manifested as a reality."

Propitation is real and is made between God Head. There is nothing for us to receive in regards propitation.

Scripture says as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God. (see John 1:12)

Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. We do not receive the propitiation. If the sins of every individual has been propitiated, he has been made whole to God.

You're demanding that this has to mean by actual experience by the individual having such manifested. But you have no scriptural basis to back up that assumption. Many would argue you're just reading that into the text and I would agree.

 

[utilyan]

if the sins of all men are forgiven and God's wrath is appeased for all men, why would they go hell? Peace has been made to God for all men. There is nothing left to punish them for.



Propitation is real and is made between God Head. There is nothing for us to receive in regards propitation.



Again, you are comparing apples to oranges. We do not receive the propitiation. If the sins of every individual has been propitiated, he has been made whole to God. There is no sin to be punished for. Go has been paid for our sins and is appeased. There would be no reason to send anyone to Hell if all sin has been is covered and removed from between us and God.


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"if the sins of all men are forgiven and God's wrath is appeased for all men, why would they go hell? Peace has been made to God for all men. There is nothing left to punish them for. "


Here is your problem buddy. Sin is not a perk. Hell can very well be getting everything you can ever want!

The LAW and PUNISHMENT was not made for God those things were made for us because we got a problem with sin.

The bad thing about sin is completely the sin, not the punishment. If God places a punishment its a discipline even an act of mercy along with the command not to sin. All that is mercy.

You ask a Saintly person what do they treasure most in heaven and earth and it will always be the LOVE OF GOD and NEIGHBOR. He is selfless being. He treasures more what happens to us and our sharing in the will of God.

If we ask a Saint what is the worst thing we can do to him it is ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD that is to Never have a Love of God and Neighbor.

What does God mean to you? How much do you value the love of God? Let me be the Devil here for a second, What can I interest you in separating you from the love of God? How about immortality? how about a perfect kingdom where you get what you want? how about 40 virgins?

The gates of hell are locked from the inside. Its us trying to get away from our greatest disgust which would be God.

2 corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

We are being reconciled to God. Not God being reconciled to us. We are the ones who have a problem with God. God already dropped the charges "not counting their trespasses against them"

 

[John of Japan]

One could John is passionate about the doctrine of Special Revelation and how we transmit this Special Revelation into a different language.

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Thank you. You've nailed my passion. I translate, I teach Greek, and I teach Bible translation. Every day I translate at least a verse in my devotions, sometimes several. There are still over 3000 languages in the world without a single verse of the precious Word of God in them. So the careless use of the original languages of Scripture is abhorrent to me, just as the careless use of Scripture ought to be very sad to all of us.

If someone wants to call that "ego," well that's up to them. That won't change my burden for Bible translation.

 

[John of Japan]

I think it's more an issue of passionate about doctrine than a matter of ego.

Thanks for understanding.

I teach a doctrine of "personal preservation" of Scripture. In the OT, the priests were the ones who were tasked with preserving the written record of Scripture. Kings were also commanded to write out their own copy of the Holy Scriptures.

In the church age, every believer is a priest and a king--the Baptist (and Reformation) principle of the priesthood of the believer (Rev. 1:6). Therefore, it is incumbent on each believer to preserve Scripture by memorization, study, translation, distribution, etc. Because of this doctrine of personal preservation, I believe that misusing the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures given to us (something often seen on the BB) is very wrong.

 

[McCree79]

"if the sins of all men are forgiven and God's wrath is appeased for all men, why would they go hell? Peace has been made to God for all men. There is nothing left to punish them for. "


Here is your problem buddy. Sin is not a perk. Hell can very well be getting everything you can ever want!

I never said sin is a perk. How is that my problem? 1st Strawman

The LAW and PUNISHMENT was not made for God those things were made for us because we got a problem with sin.

Yes, I never said the law was for God. I said propitation is for God. 2nd Strawman

The bad thing about sin is completely the sin, not the punishment. If God places a punishment its a discipline even an act of mercy along with the command not to sin. All that is mercy.

Punishment is an act of mercy...for all people? Your logic then presents Hell as merciful.

You ask a Saintly person what do they treasure most in heaven and earth and it will always be the LOVE OF GOD and NEIGHBOR. He is selfless being. He treasures more what happens to us and our sharing in the will of God.

What does this have to do with propitiation? And the statement is false. I guarantee all believers will not answer that way...even if they should.

If we ask a Saint what is the worst thing we can do to him it is ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD that is to Never have a Love of God and Neighbor.

I doubt 10% answer that way....even if they should.

What does God mean to you? How much do you value the love of God? Let me be the Devil here for a second, What can I interest you in separating you from the love of God? How about immortality? how about a perfect kingdom where you get what you want? how about 40 virgins?

This as well has zero to do with propitiation.

The gates of hell are locked from the inside. Its us trying to get away from our greatest disgust which would be God.

Hell is us trying to get away from God?

We are being reconciled to God. Not God being reconciled to us. We are the ones who have a problem with God. God already dropped the charges "not counting their trespasses against them"

Propitiation is reconciliation.

If you believe God has dropped all charges, then why would a just God punish anyone. Revelation 20:13 is clearly that those sent to Hell are judged for their sin. The charges are not dropped. The only consistent view of this postion is universalism. Judgement is real.





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[McCree79]

I said why in my post : "One can have acquired benefits that belong to them in a covenant but if they don't take proper action to appropriate or receive they'll never have them manifested as a reality."

That is nonsense in regards topropitiation. If all sin has been propitiated. Then all sinners are reconciled.

You cant benefit from propitiation, but not get its "reality "






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[Rockson]

That is nonsense in regards topropitiation. If all sin has been propitiated. Then all sinners are reconciled.

You cant benefit from propitiation, but not get its "reality "

Your strong assertion does not make that so. When Paul declared "Be you reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5:20 that's what they need to do. They need to reconcile their differences with God. God has already reconciled his differences with them. As far as God is concerned his work is done and complete.There's nothing else God can do to reconcile to man. Man's sins and the sin of the entire world was laid upon Jesus. John the Baptist declared, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 That was done. And no that doesn't make one a universalist. It won't become a reality if one doesn't appropriate what Jesus did for themselves.

 

[McCree79]

Your strong assertion does not make that so. When Paul declared "Be you reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5:20 that's what they need to do. They need to reconcile their differences with God. God has already reconciled his differences with them. As far as God is concerned his work is done and complete.There's nothing else God can do to reconcile to man. Man's sins and the sin of the entire world was laid upon Jesus. John the Baptist declared, "Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 That was done. And no that doesn't make one a universalist. It won't become a reality if one doesn't appropriate what Jesus did for themselves.

Well, obviously we disagree here. Not sure there is any other points to be made that would offer anything new. I dont know how I can make it any clearer and I am sure you feel the same way.

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[percho]

My favorite meaning would be, system of order.

 

[Iconoclast]

If the World is the elect in John 3:17 it would be the same in v16.
I don't think you can prove "The world" is the elect in either verse. Assume the world is the elect; back to the foreknowledge argument.
If Calvinism, Arminianism, or any blended theory of the two could be proven, we would not have these discussions. Theologians have never, nor will they ever agree on it.

World is world in Jn3.
the everyone believing= the elect
or the supposed whosoever will= the elect

 

[Reformed1689]

World is world in Jn3.
the everyone believing= the elect
or the supposed whosoever will= the elect

Right but what is the word world referring to is the topic of the thread.

 

[Reynolds]

World is world in Jn3.
the everyone believing= the elect
or the supposed whosoever will= the elect

Agreed. I was refuting TBE O.P. who said World meant elect.

 

[Reformed1689]

Agreed. I was refuting TBE O.P. who said World meant elect.

I have corrected and still stand by it is REFERRING to the elect. Stop arguing semantics and argue substance.

 

[Reynolds]

I have corrected and still stand by it is REFERRING to the elect. Stop arguing semantics and argue substance.

I have not been in this thread for a long time. I got drug back into it. Since I am back, It is hilarious that you have waffled 100 times on whether you are right or whether you are wrong.
With that, I bow out.

 

[John of Japan]

I have corrected and still stand by it is REFERRING to the elect. Stop arguing semantics and argue substance.

Hoping you have forgiven me for my previous interruption , I have to say that your OP is all about semantics, which in linguistics is defined as "the study of meaning" (P. H. Matthews, Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 361). This whole thread is about semantics (properly understood), so how can anyone "stop arguing semantics" without abandoning the thread?

Now if you want to argue that you are speaking of "reference" not "semantics," reference is subsumed under "semantics" in linguistics. One meaning for "reference" is, "In grammar, the indication of the relationship between words in the same sentence" (Pei & Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, pp. 183-184). Hmm. The word "elect" does not occur in the whole book of John, much less 3:16-17. Just sayin'.

 

[Reformed1689]

I have not been in this thread for a long time. I got drug back into it. Since I am back, It is hilarious that you have waffled 100 times on whether you are right or whether you are wrong.
With that, I bow out.

I've not changed my position on what the word is talking about one time. The actual lexical meaning yes, but not what it is referring to.

 

[Reformed1689]

Hoping you have forgiven me for my previous interruption , I have to say that your OP is all about semantics, which in linguistics is defined as "the study of meaning" (P. H. Matthews, Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 361). This whole thread is about semantics (properly understood), so how can anyone "stop arguing semantics" without abandoning the thread?

Now if you want to argue that you are speaking of "reference" not "semantics," reference is subsumed under "semantics" in linguistics. One meaning for "reference" is, "In grammar, the indication of the relationship between words in the same sentence" (Pei & Gaynor, Dictionary of Linguistics, pp. 183-184). Hmm. The word "elect" does not occur in the whole book of John, much less 3:16-17. Just sayin'.

You know good and well how that phrased is used....

It's Time to Argue 'Semantics'

 

[John of Japan]

You know good and well how that phrased is used....

It's Time to Argue 'Semantics'

So let me get this straight. When you name your thread, "What in the 'World' does that word mean?" and it is about the meaning of a specific word in the Bible, then I am not allowed to discuss the linguistic meaning of "semantics" ("the study of meaning")? Really????? I find that to be bizarre.

And you would probably object if I opened my lexicons and gave you the usage of that word kosmos in the first century, am I right? "UNFAIR!" You would yell.

But wait. You've already commented (in error) on the Greek word in John 3:16-17, so I'm okay, right? So, let's see if we can find your limited meaning in a lexicon. Here's a definition (Friberg, accessed through BibleWorks): "basically something well-arranged; (1) adornment, adorning (1P 3.3); (2) as the sum total of all created beings in heaven and earth world, universe (AC 17.24); (3) as all human beings mankind, humanity, all people (MK 16.15); (4) as this planet inhabited by mankind world, earth (MT 16.26; JN 11.9); (5) morally, mankind as alienated from God, unredeemed and hostile to him world (1J 5.19); (6) sum total of particulars in any one field of experience, world, totality (JA 3.6)."

(Help! I am being sucked into a Cal/Arm debate. )

 

[Reformed1689]

So let me get this straight. When you name your thread, "What in the 'World' does that word mean?" and it is about the meaning of a specific word in the Bible, then I am not allowed to discuss the linguistic meaning of "semantics" ("the study of meaning")? Really????? I find that to be bizarre.

I find you to be disingenuous. You are trying to take jabs then defend your taking of jabs.

And you would probably object if I opened my lexicons and gave you the usage of that word kosmos in the first century, am I right? "UNFAIR!" You would yell.

Ad hominem.

But wait. You've already commented (in error) on the Greek word in John 3:16-17, so I'm okay, right?

More ad hominem and I also retracted my statement yet you take the jab anyway. Your true colors are showing.

 

[JonC]

(Help! I am being sucked into a Cal/Arm debate. )

I just put you on our prayer list....even called the Pentecostals for that extra umph...