What is a 'hardshell' Baptist?

[Frogman]

You say believe in the TULIP principles, but you define them differently. Give me some examples of this.

I believe the difference lays in what is believed about perserverance of the saints.

Calvinists believe only those professing Christ who perservere in GOOD WORKS are finally and ultimately saved. While PB's certainly believe in perserverance...it is viewed more by the fact those of the elect who are perservering are doing so even without evident signs to the world of Good Works; Does this mean that a child of God does not need to have a faith that works? No. It means that we cannot enter into the eternal nature of making jugdments upon people since the only eternal judge who will judge according to righteousness is God. That righteousness by which He will judge is Christ--the righteousness of God.

In order to say that men perservere under the Calvinistic view is not altogether wrong then, but it is better understood as our relationship to the church is concerned and not our eternal relationship or position in Christ.

Bro. dallas eaton

All the rest of your questions can be answered only by a member of a particular PB church; these too may vary from church to church as each body sees Christ alone as its head adhering to no form of associational ties beyond fellowship

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I suppose I will take the first crack at your questions.

What is the difference between Spiritual Regeneration and Gospel Regeneration?

I believe that spiritual regeneration is what occurs when God places that "feeling" inside the heart of one of His children. As with Saul, he knew that the Lord was the one talking to him on the road to Damascus, but he did not know the particulars of the Christian beliefs. He just knew that this person was the Lord and he must serve Him. This regeneration, as seen in Acts 9, came not by man, but by God.

Now, as far as gospel regeneration, I don't believe in it. Of course, what many people would consider regeneration through the gospel is what I consider conversion through the gospel. In Acts, Saul (Paul) was regenerated on the road to Damascus, but he was not converted until preached to in Damascus by Ananias.


You say believe in the TULIP principles, but you define them differently. Give me some examples of this.

I think the biggest difference is the "P" in TULIP. We believe it as preservation of the saints, not perseverance. This is where our belief in timely vs. eternal salvation comes into play. We believe a man can lose the joy of his salvation, i.e. church fellowship, comfort in the gospel, etc. by not obeying God's laws and straying from righteousness. However, we believe that this has no bearing on that child's eternal salvation.

We do not believe everyone will persevere, always remain in the faith, until their death. Perseverance would say that if a man doesn't persevere to the end, he was never really a child of God. We dispute this. Preservation, as stated in our Articles of Faith, states that His children will not fall finally away. In other words, Once saved, always saved, basically.


What kind of evangelism do you practice and believe in? Please give examples of what your church does in this area.

This is where you get into differences, even among the Primitive Baptists. My church, for example, does not believe in "evangelizing", so to speak. We believe we should always be ready with an answer when someone questions our beliefs. We should always be ready to teach what we believe to people, but we do not go out of our way to try and "save" people in the world. We believe that once a person is regenerated, they will be lead by God to the place he wants them to be.

Of course, there are some PBs who have gone overseas to establish so-called "missions", though different in practice and purpose than Missionary Baptists. They are out spreading the gospel, which I don't disagree with, depending on their methods. I don't disagree with a preacher feeling lead by the Spirit to go preach here or there. But, we would disagree with a practice that is trying to save people through the gospel.

Jeremiah 31:
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Are most PB churches or hardshell churches KJV only?(the ones of I know of around my area are)

Yes. We don't feel the need to improve upon something that is already perfect the way it is. We do consider the KJV to be flawless. We feel it is the translation God set up for the English speaking world. Of course, that does in no way leave out our responsibility to study the Greek and Hebrew to delve into the reasons such words were translated in such ways and the ancient context of the texts.


Are most PBs Baptist Briders?

You'll have to explain what you mean by this. I'm not familiar with this phrase.


Do PBs or Hardshellers all only have one service a week or do you have others?

This varies from church to church. Depending on the size, average age, dispersment from the church (distance from home to church), etc. We used to hold Sunday morning and Wednesday evening services, but our current Pastor lives 50 miles away, so we did away with it. Some churches also have Sunday evening service, but not too many.

Also, probably 90% of PB churches have at least one weekend-long meeting/Association per year. We usually meet on Thursday or Friday night and have preaching and singing through Sunday.

I hope I answered your questions well. If any other PB can see something that I left out, please feel free to add to what I said.

God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Bro. James Reed]

PBs, do you also include this "shall" in your list of "shalls"?

Romans 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Gunther, I believe Bro. Glen said this in his message, but I'm going to say it again.

These names were given to us by others. Mostly, by people who wanted to embarras us. The names given to us were meant to be insulting.

So, you see, we do not have a list of "shalls". We are simply stating the reason others called us this.

BTW, the "shalls" that you pointed out have to do with conversion, not regeneration. But, you can read in my previous post to see about that.

God Bless. Bro. James

 

[IfbReformer]

Brother Reed,

Thank you for all your answers to my questions. I am kind of in a hurry now but I wanted to throw a few more questions your way and I will check your answers tommorow.

I agree with you that regeneration occurs before conversion and that God must regenerate someone before they will understand and accept the Gospel(because no man natuarally seeks after God).

Having said that - do you believe conversion is necessary, not just regeneration? I don't think one happens without the other but I wanted to here what you thought.

Also could you explain your "timely vs. eternal" salvation concept. I know you have mentioned it before but I forgot what you meant by it.

By the way, my position on perseverance would be close to yours, I would just say that while a believer can fall into carnality and not grow as he should - he may even stop going to church and really living out his faith the way he should, but a true believer will never stop trusting in Christ for his Salvation in his heart. So I do believe in once-saved-always-saved.

Thanks

IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:

Are most PBs Baptist Briders?

You'll have to explain what you mean by this. I'm not familiar with this phrase.

Brother Reed,

A Baptist Brider is one who believes only those who "scripturally baptized"(they define this as being baptized by immersion in by someone who has the proper authority - i.e. a Baptist minister) are part the bride of Christ and Body of Christ.

All other believers, while they are saved, are not a part of the body of Christ and are not his Bride but are part of the "family of God" - which they believe is seperate from the body of Christ.

Landmarkers who are generally Baptist Briders(the terms are almost synonomous) believe your church must have been founded by another church with the proper authority(i.e. a Baptist church) to be considered a true church.

Hope that helps.

IFBReformer

 

[tyndale1946]

We are not Briders by any means... Baptism is the answer of a clear concious toward God... Not putting away of the filth of the flesh... and never used to put anyone anywhere but the militant church on earth! PB's believe Baptism has no eternal saving capabilities ever!... As the preachers say if you are not regenerated before you are immersed in the baptismal waters... You went in a dry devil and came out a wet one. Repent ye for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand was John The Baptist cry and if what you say is true then those Jewish brethren would have been knocking each other down to get John to immerse them!... What was John's reply... Ye generation of VIPERS who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come!... Brother Glen

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Glenn, Now it is my turn to ask you a question Brother:

Can I join a PB church under my present baptism at the hands of an ordained preacher in a missionary church?

Before I read your answer, I know what it is. Just want to develop a thought here that a true Landmarker/Brider does not equate Baptism with eternal salvation either.

Bro. Dallas

 

[tyndale1946]

NO! ... I'm glad you told me that as I am neither but then there are some Denominations that Baptism is the key to Heaven... Baptism is the key to fellowship with the Lord and his children but you must be immersed again to join the PB's as far as the churches repesented on here to my knowledge... The PB Progressives may take you just the way you are but do you want to be a Progressive?... They are not satisfied the way the church is set up... To many changes in practice!... Other PB's may have a different view of it... That is just mine!... Brother Glen

 

[Frogman]

You are right, I do not want to join a progressive PB church. I view this as beginning at a different mile marker on the same road and not long before I would be seeing the same guideposts.

Bro. Dallas

 

[tyndale1946]

Ding, ding, ding. We have a Primitive Baptist here!... I agree with Brother James... Frogman you just need to let go and let the Lord lead you... You are already a preacher you are just preaching to the wrong congregation!IMHO!... The PB's would just eat you up... We are very big on lunch and you do look a little on the puny side ... That is OK the Lord will fatten up the Spiritual Man and we will put some meat on the fleshly one

... All you have to do is Preach... Preacher!... Sing for your supper ... Brother Glen

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Bro. Glen, first let me say that you are right about eating. Especially once you become a preacher. Our Pastor was ordained last year and he has gained probably 25-30 lbs. since. Something about preaching makes you hungry, I guess.

IFBReformer, I need to be really careful about the way I word this. Primitive Baptists believe that we are the true Church. We believe that we are the remnants of the Church that Christ set up 2000 yrs. ago. So, in answer to that part of your question, yes we are "Baptist Briders."

The first part is a slippery slope since some people believe that "child of God" and "baptized believer" are synonymous. While we believe that we are the true remnant, we do not believe that all of God's children will be baptized into the church. (We are not Campbellites )

We do believe that a scriptural church is one that was extended an arm from another scriptural church. We also believe the same about Elders and baptism. In other words, we believe in baptist succession. (Although a very few PBs nowadays are rejecting this idea.)

I think Bro. Glen believes this too, but I don't think he read into your question the same way I did. It seems like PBs are afraid of some language used by people now because it has become synonymous with beliefs that we don't agree with, i.e. witnessing, annointing with oil, excommunication. So, when you say that some of His children are in the bride of Christ, I really have to stop and think about what you said. Of course, if we all think about it, the Bride of Christ is the church. AND, no, I don't believe all of His children will be in the bride.

That's where we get into timely(temporal) salvation. Those of us in the church get to enjoy the blessings of it while here on earth. Those not in the church, though they could be one of His children, they are not getting the blessing of rest in His church like we are. That is timely salvation.

Let me just say, also, that I am rather enjoying this discussion. It's the first thread in a while that I haven't witnessed fussing, fighting, and name calling.

This is a truly Christian discussion. I commend each of you brethren.

God Bless. Bro. James

 

[Gunther]

Frogman, just a point of clarification, the word translated "word" in Romans 10:17 is "rhema". That is the greek word for "an utterance". It is something spoken.

Your interpretation that this is Christ is flawed because it is not true to the text.

The text does teach though that the spoken word of God saves people.

I know that is contrary to PBs, but it is straight from Scripture.

Now, do those "shalls" count for "hardshallers"?

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Gunther for that clarification. I do appreciate it, but it does not deter from what I said because Christ is the essence of God.

Hebrews 1:1  ¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

I believe Christ is the 'utterance' of God.

Bro. Dallas

 

[tyndale1946]

I know the Bride Of Christ is the true church!... But there are two brides... There is the Bride of Christ that makes up the visible militant church in the world and serves him in practice and doctrine in true church. Then there is the triumphant eternal Bride that is made up of ALL his redeemed children that he died for and purchased with his own blood and can be seen in Rev 7:9-10... visible militant church down thoughout history is contained in triumphant eternal church but is only a small remnant that serves him in time!... Brother James I'm passing the torch to you... As you opened this can of worms... Brother Glen

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Bro. Glen...I think we can both agree with what you said. Thanks for the clarification.

(Can of worms closed?)

 

[tyndale1946]

We PB's believe that ALL God's children SHALL be in Heaven... There is nothing that can separate you from that... You may abuse it like King David... But you can NEVER lose it!... You may walk in forbidden paths but you are still bought with a price... If you feel unworthy and don't feel you belong to Jesus that is evidence you do!… My personal belief is that if you didn’t belong to the Lord he wouldn’t reveal himself to you. Denominations are not the assurance of Heaven but the blood of the Lamb Of God is and those who believe in God are the children of God. The blood of the sinless Lamb Of God is greater than ALL our sins of comission or omission!

... I personally and I know all the PB brethren do not worry that Christ is going to lose any that he died for. PB’s do not worry because it is not in our hands anyway. Christ’s death and resurrection is sufficient for ALL that were given him by the Father to save and no others are included. You can lose the JOY OF YOUR SALVATION in this life and many times in the scriptures there are those who did but their ETERNAL SALVATION was NEVER lost. Their ETERNAL SALVATION was NEVER in question. They may have acted like the devil’s children at times but they NEVER belonged to him. Those who think anothers ETERNAL SALVATION is in question would take heed to take Romans 8:28-39 to heart… There is nothing in the natural or the supernatural worlds that can separate any of God's children from his love which is in God's promise and in Jesus Christ our Lord!… Brother Glen

[ September 11, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[Frogman]

Gunther,
On another forum, and in response to the following question and statement I responded according to what I have quoted below, this pertains to your exegesis of Romans 10.

The question:

At what time did the imputation of righteousness to the elect occur?

Statements: [paraphrase with integrity]

The fall corporately affected all of mankind; this is sometimes called seminal representation.

In Christ however redemption is not seminally represented. [I agree]

Rather, imputation of righteousness was first purposed, then represented, and finally occurring at regeneration.

My response:

Let me 'write' outloud just for my own development and understanding...ok?

Being purposed this is meaning purposed of or by God.

Being represented this is meaning having representation in Christ as kinsman redeemer.

Being regenerated this is meaning receiving knowledge of the first two events occurring in eternity?

Am I way off base from your own reasoning in these statements? If so correct me. A great problem is taking a position and standing rather that recognizing the issue and working toward a position. I want to avoid that if possible. However, in reading or hearing the above statements what I have written would be the reasoning I would follow in response.

This then would lead me to conclude your are correct in stating the elect have no 'seminal' representation in Christ as mankind has collectively in Adam, however, by virtue of the first two statements I find I must reason the last statement is impossible to avoid. In fact, the first statement alone precludes the other two.

It is of Course God the Father who has purposed.
God the Son who has represented. {and I understand without this representation there could be no eternal life even offered to anyone}
God the Holy Spirit operating in regeneration and quickening of the individual to bring about the reality [perhaps a better word is experiental knowledge of salvation].

Thus, I can conclude man plays no central, nor periphial {check spelling} part in any of this process. We do not disagree fundamentally at this point, but our disagreement arises when our position becomes one of primarily what is meant in Romans 10 'faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God'. I have had others to explain to me the Greek on this is not "rhema" and thus not equal to Logos found in John 1, thus this (in their view) proves beyond doubt faith comes after having heard the preached Gospel. I respond this is not necessarily the case. Why not? If "rhema" is the word found in Romans 10 roughly stated above, then the argument continues this means 'utterance'; we must determine is this the utterance of a man [a gospel preacher] or is it in reality the utterance of God in conviction to the lost individual? I would arrive at the position this is the utterance of God and not man. Even were this to occur during the preaching of the Gospel it remains the utterance of God, or in essence "The Word of The Lord". Giving this over to the preacher is not what I believe is intended in Romans 10.

Bro. Dallas

I hope this more fully explains my earlier limited post.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Gunther]

Dallas, God does not speak Christ.

The text says that people are saved when the gospel message is proclaimed and they believe.

This and 1 Cor. 1:18-21 are passages PBs refuse to deal with.

 

[tyndale1946]

PB's are not afraid to deal with these scriptures as this relates to timely salvation and not eternal... Gunther would you care to elaborate on Jeremiah 31:31-34 that contradicts what you said... Brother Glen

 

[Gina B]

I'm glad I found this thread!
Can we get you "hardshellers" to change from tulip to a pansy or something? You're giving the Calvinists a bad name because you're too easily confused with us! Seriously, people think "Calvinist...oh yeah, the guys who don't do anything and ignore the command to go..."
It has caused me a lot of confusion because I couldn't figure out where they got this idea!
Gina