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What is a Healthy Church?

evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Read this book by Mark Dever recently. I agree with most of it, however by his admission only Reformed/Calvinist churches are healthy.

http://www.9marks.org/what-are-the-9marks/

Lots of churches do not fit his bill some of which include Pastor Erwin Lutzer, David Jeremiah, and Charles Stanley. None of the pastors above are Reformed, however Lutzer probably best understands the DOG, but still he is not listed as a healthy pastor on Dever's website. So what is a healthy churches and are only Calvinist churches healthy? In my opinion Reformed Theology is the best and most Biblical but I also agree that many Arminian will be in Heaven and they are in general our brothers. So what say you?
 
SolaSaint

SolaSaint

Well-Known Member
I think if you asked 100 Pastors that question you would never get the same answer. Could you imagine what Rick Warren would say? The more the better and everyone finding their purpose. Kenneth Copeland might say, everyone speaking in tongues and getting wealthy. MacArthur might say, if everyone surrendered to the Lord.

Was the church in Acts a healthy church? What about the seven churches in Asia Minor? I like what Dever has to say, but it isn't to say he is right or wrong.
 
T

thisnumbersdisconnected

New Member
evangelist6589 said:
Read this book by Mark Dever recently. I agree with most of it, however by his admission only Reformed/Calvinist churches are healthy.
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Then I would like to invite him to our church. He'll hear the gospel, see a congregation that loves one another, and for the most part and healthy congregation that knows how to reach the world for Christ. His statement is arrogant, particularly in light of ...
evangelist6589 said:
Lots of churches do not fit his bill some of which include Pastor Erwin Lutzer, David Jeremiah, and Charles Stanley. None of the pastors above are Reformed, however Lutzer probably best understands the DOG, but still he is not listed as a healthy pastor on Dever's website.
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This goes hand in hand with the Rev's thread on defending systems over defending the gospel. Despite the beliefs of many well-meaning adherents of that certain doctrine that is so often the cause of strife on this forum, the gospel is not a system or a doctrine, but the very word of God, and not system or doctrine can hope to contain the nuances and depths of the gospel. Dever, if your comments about it are accurate, would appear to be contributing to the furtherance of that error.
 
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Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
evangelist6589 said:
Read this book by Mark Dever recently. I agree with most of it, however by his admission only Reformed/Calvinist churches are healthy.

http://www.9marks.org/what-are-the-9marks/

Lots of churches do not fit his bill some of which include Pastor Erwin Lutzer, David Jeremiah, and Charles Stanley. None of the pastors above are Reformed, however Lutzer probably best understands the DOG, but still he is not listed as a healthy pastor on Dever's website. So what is a healthy churches and are only Calvinist churches healthy? In my opinion Reformed Theology is the best and most Biblical but I also agree that many Arminian will be in Heaven and they are in general our brothers. So what say you?
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I'd like to hear a quote as well. That is a bold accusation.

Knowing the 9 marks of a healthy church, my guess is that he is saying in the context of solid "biblical theology" (not in the discipline sense but a theology that coheres w/ the Bible) is one of the marks of a healthy church. He would then put aspects of reformed theology in that area of solid theology thus making it one of the marks of a healthy church.

However, my guess is that he would not say that non-reformed are unhealthy. Maybe not as solid as they could be, but not unhealthy.

So again... please provide a quote. Otherwise, this is some kind of slander/libel (get 'em mixed up). If not, then very harsh accusations along with really poor reading and observation skills on the OPer.
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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Good work Evan ..... your going to start a fight. I can almost foresee it now.

Personally, I like Mark Dever. He has a systematic approach to organization & I like that. But somebody needs to tell him that he looks like Fred Flintstone with that 5 o'clock. Either he needs to grow it out in a beard (might look scholarly) or he might want to invest in a cordless Norelco & shave before he gets videotaped. :smilewinkgrin:
 
evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Jerome said:
Is this something he says outright?
If so could you provide a quote.



Is there actually a list of healthy pastors on Dever's website?
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Well only Calvinist churches are mentioned on the 9 Marks website and if you do a church search it will show you only those churches.
 
evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Okay my error to get more technical he does not state they are not healthy, he just does not endorse them nor list them as a healthy church.

http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/searchmap.php

I did a search in many areas and only found Reformed churches listed. While you disagree others will interpret that as not being healthy and believe me I have spoken to others whom also see this. I best and love Reformed theology.


Greektim said:
I'd like to hear a quote as well. That is a bold accusation.

Knowing the 9 marks of a healthy church, my guess is that he is saying in the context of solid "biblical theology" (not in the discipline sense but a theology that coheres w/ the Bible) is one of the marks of a healthy church. He would then put aspects of reformed theology in that area of solid theology thus making it one of the marks of a healthy church.

However, my guess is that he would not say that non-reformed are unhealthy. Maybe not as solid as they could be, but not unhealthy.

So again... please provide a quote. Otherwise, this is some kind of slander/libel (get 'em mixed up). If not, then very harsh accusations along with really poor reading and observation skills on the OPer.
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A

Aaron

Member
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"Physician, heal thyself." So glad Christ would never say that to His church.

Who has made the dumb or the deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? If you find a "healthy" church, don't join it. You'll just handicap it with your own weaknesses.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
evangelist6589 said:
Okay my error to get more technical he does not state they are not healthy, he just does not endorse them nor list them as a healthy church.

http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/searchmap.php

I did a search in many areas and only found Reformed churches listed. While you disagree others will interpret that as not being healthy and believe me I have spoken to others whom also see this. I best and love Reformed theology.
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I think it is a two way street on that church registry. Churches that want to be on there agree w/ Dever. Thus they are reformed. I wonder though if it is a requirement or just a natural result.
 
Jerome

Jerome

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evangelist6589 said:
Okay my error to get more technical he does not state they are not healthy, he just does not endorse them nor list them as a healthy church.
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Huh? Mark/9Marks don't necessarily endose churches on the list, and basically any individual can just fill out the form and get their church listed. (a church I belonged to was once listed there unbeknownst to the congregation)


http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/
A church’s appearance in the Church Search tool should not be viewed as an endorsement by 9Marks.

Churches here are self-selected through affirming both

the 9Marks mission statement
the T4G Affirmations & Denials

and are minimally screened by 9Marks staff.
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evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Which really confuses me. Why would someone write about the 9 Marks of a healthy church and then link to 9 marks churches and then say he does not endorse them. Very confusing... Okay maybe LakeWood Church will end up on that list one day and they will say they do not endorse them. Confusing...

Greektim said:
This completely throws out the OP then.
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evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Jerome said:
Huh? Mark/9Marks don't necessarily endose churches on the list, and basically any individual can just fill out the form and get their church listed. (a church I belonged to was once listed there unbeknownst to the congregation)


http://www.9marks.org/churchsearch/
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Maybe LakeWood Church should also fill out the form and appear on the list and they will say they do not endorse them.

I am confused with this system...
 
Jerome

Jerome

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It says there is minimal screening done.

If you recall I pointed out a Wesleyan church in Colorado on the 9Marks directory.
 
Greektim

Greektim

Well-Known Member
Jerome said:
It says there is minimal screening done.

If you recall I pointed out a Wesleyan church in Colorado on the 9Marks directory.
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9Marks does not have the man power to screen every church submission. However, I've used it before to get an idea or the lay of the land (local church options). Then I went to the church's website to do a further investigation. By and large, it is like-minded churches on there.

Honestly, I prefer the Gospel Coalitions list more. Bit more evangelical, less baptistic.
 
Jerome

Jerome

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Same thing on 'The Gospel Coalition' directory:

Disclaimer: The Gospel Coalition does not endorse all churches in the directory. We are not able to fully vet all churches.
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There's quite a range, everything from Episcopal to Assemblies of God, even United Methodist.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/network/church-directory/state/arkansas/harmony_assembly_of_god

Harmony Assembly of God is a family church located at the base of majestic Magazine Mountain in Paris, Arkansas. We are dedicated to loving God and serving people in the River Valley and around the world.

Pastor: Tammy Frederick
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