What is a heretick?

But that is faulty logic because you are begging the question. You are assuming, based on your theology, that these passages (as understood at face value by the historical church) contradict other passages in the Bible, but millions of Christians both past and present would disagree that this is in fact the case.

Likewise, Martin Luther called The Epistle of James an "epistle of straw" because it conflicted with his interpretation of Paul's writings. And today, believe it or not, there are some that deny that repentance is necessary for salvation because it conflicts with their interpretation of Luther's doctrine of salvation by "faith alone"(!).

 

I am not assuming that the passages on faith I refer to teach salvation by faith alone; that is what they clearly teach. It is not an assumption, but what they say.

 

No, the "assumption" I was referring to was your assumption that the passages conflicted with each other. That is in fact not the case.

Interestingly enough, the only passage in the Bible that has the phrase "faith alone" is in James 2:24 where it states: "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone".

 

Lest someone should get the wrong idea, repentance is definately necessary for salvation.

Luke-47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


There is no remission of sin without repentance.

Working for Jesus.

Tam

 

Tamborine Lady:
Amen!

 

Marcia:

Jesus said in Mark 16:16," He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved But he that beleiveth not shall be damned."

If Jesus had spoken and had it written as you have stated,he would have engaged in what is called redundancy, In short, you make Jesus and Mark and illiterate.

He that eateth his food and digests it shall be healthy, but he that eateth not shall be sick.
It is obvious from the first clause that one cannot digest and be healthy if one does not eat.

I say this kindly, but you should refresh your memory about the rules of language usage.

 

I don't see a parallel between Mk 16:16 and eating and digesting. Digesting cannot be avoided if one eats, it is a part of it, but one can believe and be saved and then baptized.

My father, a lifelong agnostic, trusted Christ (this was like a miracle to my sister and myself who never thought we'd see this as he had strong resistance to the gospel) on Feb. 11, 1996, while in the hospital. He had a look of peace on his face I had never seen before. A month later, he went into a semi-conscious and sometimes unconscious state and a month after that, he died, only 12 days short of his 80th birthday. He never went to church after being saved and never was baptized in water, but I know I will see him in heaven.

Before he lapsed into a sporadic unconscious/semi-consicous state, he would spontaneously be making up his own hymns when we came to visit. We could hear him singing, "Praise God, He is the only God, Praise Jesus Christ," and things like that as we walked down the hallway toward his room.

Even in his semi-conscious state, in the ICU, he woke up one day to tell the nurse who was there in the ICU at the time to read the Bible. The nurse told us this later -- we had not witnessed this. She said he was quite awake and conscious (one of the last times) and she chuckled as she told us,"It is kind of funny that he told me over and over to read the Bible because I am Buddhist." The changes in my father, even in this state, were amazing. God even used an almost 80-year-old man who was basically almost always unconscious to witness to this nurse.

He is in heaven with Christ now. How do I know this? Because over and over and over again, we are told to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. I believed this when I was saved, and believed it from God's word before this experience with my father, but this experience just confirmed how the believer is indwelt and regenerated by the HS upon belief. And this is what I find taught in the Bible.

 

Marcia:
You do not see a parallel becaue you do not want to see one. I have asked the Englsih teachers in my school about this very verse. All of them agree with the parallel and the use of redundancy. Thess teachers have advanced degrees in language. I guess yo uknow more about lnaguage than those who actually teach the subject.

I am going to adress the baptism of the Holy spirit and water by contrast. It will address 12 points of contrast that demonstrates the baptsim ofr salvationwas water baptism. Consider the following:

The Contrast of Holy Spirit Baptism and Water Baptism


1. Water baptism is for all nations, and is required of every creature that is subject to the gospel. (Mat. 28:18-20).
Holy Spirit baptism was not for all men, for in speaking of the spirit of truth Jesus said, “ Whom the world cannot receive.” (John 14:17).

2. Water baptism is a command of God. (Mat. 28:19; Acts 10:48; 2:38; 22:16). Holy Spirit baptism was for a very few. ( Acts 1:5).

3. Water baptism is an act of obedience, an act of man. (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 10:48). Spirit baptism was an act of the Lord, not of man. (Acts 1:5).

4. Water baptism is administered by men, by those doing the teaching. (Mat. 28:19, I Cor.1: 14). Spirit baptism was administered by the Lord himself. (Mat. 3:11, John 1:33).

5. Water baptism is a condition of salvation to a lost world. (Mark 16:15,16,
I Pet. 3; 21). Holy Spirit baptism had to with either confirming or revealing the gospel. (Hebrews 2:4, John 16:13).


6. Water baptism is in the name of Christ, and into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. (Mat. 28:19, Acts 2:38, 8:14-16, 22:16).
Man did not perform Holy Spirit baptism. It was in no name at all.

7. Water baptism is an act of faith. (Gal. 3:26,27, Col. 2:12). Spirit baptismwas not anact of man. ( Mat. 3;11).

8. Water baptism has in action both a burial, and a resurrection as Christ was buried and raised. (Romans 6:4, Col. 2:12). Spirit baptism had no resurrection and no visible burial. (Acts 1:5, 2:4).

9. Water baptism grows out of repentance. (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 19:4, 2:38). Holy Spirit baptism came after the baptism for repentance. (Mark 1:4, Luke 7: 29,30: Acts 1:5, 2:1-4).

10. Water baptism is a condition to cleanse one form the guilt of sin.( Acts 22:16, Eph. 5:25,26). Spirit baptism came along after the apostles were already clean. (John 15:3).

11. Water baptism was in order to receive the ordinary gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38). Spirit baptism was a reception of the miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit administered by Christ. (Acts 1:5, Mat. 3:11).

12. Water baptism puts one in Christ. Gal. 3; 26,27). Spirit baptism came after the apostles were already in Christ, and had been urged to abide in Christ. (John 15:1-6).

The Bible does not teach one is saved by Holy Spirit baptism. Feelings, and testimony do not make truth, nor wii they save one.

 

Your 12 points show that water baptism is an act of man; our acts cannot save us.

I already responded earlier to some of the verses you reference.

Water baptism, as you pointed out, is an act of man. If we must perform an act to be saved, in addition to faith, then it is faith plus works, which is not grace.

 

Marcia:
The faith that saves is always an active faith. ( Hebrews 11:16). Faith is a work itself. It is not a work of merit. There are many types of works in the Bible: works of the Law, works of righteousness, Faith that works through love, Works of Abraham, works of the flesh. Ephesians 2:8,9 is a discussion about works of merit, unless you have changed the meaning of the words not of works lest any man should boast.

Baptism is an act of faith by men to access the grace of God to save. It is an operation of God that man must do to be saved. ( Romans 5:1,2, Col. 2:12, Hebrews 5:8,9). It is NOT a work of merit, which is condemned, but it is a work of faith that is required by God.

This is why Jesus said , He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. This is why the eunoch belived, confessed and was baptized. This is why those in Samaria believed and were baptized. Gaius and the Corinthians believed and were baptized. Every example of conversion in the new testament of Christ connects man's active faith with salvation by the grace of God. NO EXCEPTIONS.
You can study the book of Acts, the new testament and the old testament from now unitl eternity with the mind of Einstein and it will still read and require an active obedient faith to be saved by the grace of God. There will still be acts of faith by all of those converted to access the grace of God. It will not change.

There will still be works of faith, the law, righteousness, works of the flesh, works of merit, works of Abraham. You can reject the truth , but the truth will not change. ( John 12:48).

 

The Book of James doesn not disagree with Pauline theology. Every saved person will manifest good works as a result of his or her faith in Jesus. Few people question that the Apostle Paul taught the 'imputation of Christ's righteousness' to every saved person, except some extreme Arminians. [Romans 4:3 & 6; = James 2:23]

Martin Luther was so glad to leave behind his Catholicism's faith plus works, that said more than he should have about the Book of James being a 'book of straw.' In fact, Luther was wrong. This book dovetails beautifully with all of God's teaching in the N.T. Scriptures.

 

Heb. 11:16 does not support that faith for salvation is a work. In fact, the Bible makes a contrast between faith and works. Faith produces works but faith is not a work.

That statement is a contradiction. If we do something to "access teh grace" then it is not grace.

 

Marcia,

You said, 'That statement is a contradiction. If we do something to "access the grace"
then it is not grace.'

Ray: 'If we do not asked Jesus for grace we will never receive this saving entity. Grace comes to our hearts through faith in Jesus saving benefits. [John 3:16]

Without faith in Him we remain in our sinful and lost condition of heart and life.

 

Marcia:

Paul made the inspired statement that faith accesses the grace of God. ( Romans 5:1,2).
Jesus said belief , the verbal form of faith, is a work.( John 6:28,29).

The Bible teaches that an active faith saves. Every example in the Bible teaches and affirms Hebrews 11:6. Chapter 11 of Hebrews uses active faith in every example of salvation. I challenge you to provide scriptual support that disproves that faith must be active to be saved by the grace of God.

Your position is utterly hopeless. In Hebrews 11:30, the Bible says, " by faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were compasssed about seven days. If one accepted your positon, they would have went to Jericho and sat there and waited for the grace of God to give them the city without them compassing about the walls for seven days. And, if this were the case, the Israelites would still be sitting there saying God I am waiting for the walls to fall, as I can do nothing to receive the city by your grace. However, the scriptures teach the walls fell AFTER they were compasssed about seven days, not before. Again, your position is unsupported by the Bible.

You would do well to read the entire account from Joshua 6. Note: The city is said to be given to Israel in verse 16. Yet, it was not at that time in their possession. Grace ( the gift of the city) must be accessed by active faith. ( Hebrews 11:30).

There are three eternal principles of God at work in salvation: Grace, Faith, Obedience. These three have never and will never change. This is the case in all examples of salvation. There is no biblical exception. None!

 

Marcia:
I received the spirit by obeying God. The Bible says in Acts 5:32, " And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Again, the eternal principle of obedient faith is required to receive the spiritual blessings of God.

Your false fallacy is that with grace there is no law.( Romans 7:12,14;8:2, I Cor. 9:21,Gal. 6:1,2, James 1:25; 2:8).

 

False fallacy? Isn't that sort of a contradiction or oxymoron? I think "fallacy" would suffice.

I never said that with grace there is no law. Of course, by "law" I mean obeying Christ's commandments because we love him (which is what he says). I said that faith and works are contrasted in the Bible and I stand by that. Faith produces works but they are separate things.

As far as the quote from Acts 5 goes:
1. It was said by the Apostles; I don't think their experiences are the norm for Christians today. Many believe the act of being saved and receiving the HS were not always at the same time in Acts, but that's a different topic.
2. This is not about them being saved, but receiving the HS (not normative for today).
3. You can't build a whole doctrine on one verse.
4. The instructions to believers are in the epistles. There is nothing there about needing to obey a law to be saved. Actually, I don't think there is anything in the NT read in context about needing to obey a law to be saved.

 

Frank,

Oh, I get it! So now salvation is earned by faith plus good performance.

Funny, I always though God speaking through the Apostle Paul said, 'Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.' [Romans 5:1] Apparently, Martin Luther was wrong. Paul seems to most strongly affirm that when we are justifed by the Lord God, we will be protected against His wrath for our faults, sins, and failure. [Romans 5:9; Romans 8:1 and so on. By the way, the Greek text reads like this.

'There is NOW no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.' The rest of the verse was added for clarity of thought; and by this I mean the words, ' . . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' This adding of words makes it seem like we are saved by our human effort to please God. It is true that we will try to please God if we have been saved, but we are not going to be finally saved by our effort or alleged 'good works.'

 

This contrasts faith with the law, which is essentially being saved by obedience/works under the law.