So let me get this straight. Swaimj gives a perfectly good description of theological liberalism, you respond to it as if he were talking about political liberalism, and then you say that other people mix the two up???BaptistBeliever said:
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What is a liberal?
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I would say that if people get these terms confused then they are naive.BaptistBeliever said:
Politics has its own vocabulary.
Theology has its own vocabulary.
Most people are intelligent enough to discern between the two. The same is not only true of the word liberal but many other words as well. For example take the word "fundamental." It is used both politically and religiously.
Religiously it is used of those who keep to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, specifically to those who came together in 1895 at Niagara and agreed on five specific fundamentals because of the war that they were engaging in on "religious liberalism." It is obvious that I don't need the adjective religious there, for Protestant leaders of the late 19th century would not be engaged in a fight against political liberalism.
I belong to a fundamental Baptist Church.
However, the news speaks of a fundamental Mormon sect in Texas whose leader advocates polygamy. Many if not all of the children have been put in the custody of the state. Is this the fundamentalism you know?
The people that destroyed the WTC were of a fundamentalist sect of Islam. But not all Muslims are fundamentalist. Are you?
The Hindus that destroyed an ancient Muslim mosque in Adyodha in India a few years back were of a fundamentalist sect. But most Hindus are peace-loving people. Are you one of these fundamentalists?
Isn't it evident that the word "fundamental" is used in more of a political sense and does not just refer to the Christian "fundamentalism" that we know?
The same is true of the word liberal. It is used politically and religiously, and most people know the difference.
JustChristian
New Member
John of Japan said:So let me get this straight. Swaimj gives a perfectly good description of theological liberalism, you respond to it as if he were talking about political liberalism, and then you say that other people mix the two up???
OK. So everyone agrees that there is NO CONNECTION between theological liberals and political liberals. Fine.
JustChristian
New Member
Revmitchell said:
This is a familiar passage in which Jesus told us how to live our lives and about achieving eternal life. It is reinforced by a very familiar parable.
Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
What exactly does it mean to you to love our neighbor as ourself. To let the sick die and the starving go hungry? I'm sorry, I'm afraid you've gotten all tangled in in being a correct fundamentalist and lost sight of what it means to live a Christian life.
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.
Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],
Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
You can call this the social gopspel or whatever you want to but you're not describing Jesus' gospel if you don't accept his commandments to do "social" things for our neighbor.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
1. If you loved God with all of your heart, soul, and strength, and mind, then there would not be one action, or thought that you would have that would not be, but it be for the service of our Lord. You would in full time service. You would be on the mission field, the neediest place in the world--possibly a Muslim nation, using every waking moment rescuing those that have never heard from the clutches of Hell by delivering to them the gospel, at the expense of the death of your life. You would spend every extra minute of your life in prayer and Bible study. Your whole life, every minute of it, would be entirely devoted to God. All your heart, soul, strength, and mind.BaptistBeliever said:
First carry out the first command, then we'll start talking of your social gospel.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Do you really know the meaning of this?
What is the Great Commission. Lest you don't know I will quote it for you:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Loving your neighbor as yourself is going to them with the gospel so that they will not perish in Hell. Spiritual bread is far more important than physical bread. Spiritual well-being is far more important than physical well-being. How important it is for a person to know that they are on their way to heaven and have very little food; then to know they are on their way to Hell and have a closet full of clothes. Do you really love your neighbor as yourself. Then give yourself totally to God and be a missionary to the neediest place on earth; go to them; and give the gospel to them that they may not perish in Hell. If you don't then you don't love your neighbor as yourself.
Your application of the parable is wrong. It is in answer to a question posed by a lawyer, "And who is my neighbor?" The question was not "What is salvtiion" How do I get eternal life," etc. It does not answer the question of spiritual salvation whatsoever. It is an illustration that rebukes that Pharisees concept of who their neighbor was, and how they should treat others. It does not answer any question of salvation.
The greatest command that Christ ever gave is right before he ascended into heaven. It is the last command that he gave us:
Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Are you willing to obey it? Will you obey it?
I have outlined what you must do to obey these commands.
Are you ready to keep them now?
You are mixing up the Gospel and Christian living. The Gospel is very succintly defined in 1 Cor. 15:1-8, and there is nothing about social action in it. The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins (as proven by His burial) and rose again the third day (as proven by the many witnesses). Furthermore, there is only one Gospel, as Gal. 1 clearly teaches. Anyone who preaches any other Gospel is to be accursed.BaptistBeliever said:
This error of called social action "Gospel" in a theological sense did begin with the "social Gospel" advocates (who were theological liberals) late in the 19th century. No Christians until that time in all of history made such assertions and taught such doctrines.
Yes, we are to love our neighbors. Yes, we are to help the poor. Fundamentalists do these things through poverty programs at our churches, "rescue missions," bus ministries and many other ways. However, this is not spreading the Gospel. It is living out the Christian life.
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JustChristian
New Member
DHK said:
Are you? You're claiming that you spend ALL of your time on the mission field preaching to the lost. An admirable objective but somehow I doubt it.
Oh, you are wrong about the lawyer's question. The original question was about salvation. The parable clarified Jesus' answer as to who his neighbor was. I suggest that you read the whole chapter rather than taking quotations out of context.
Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Jesus' reply was:
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
The discussion is definitely aboput salvation.
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BaptistBeliever said:
It is about priorities. The primary roll of the church is evangelism via the preaching of the gospel. It is not government mandated communism. Libs work feverishly to paint fundamentals as ignoring the poor etc. But it is just not true. There are many churches out there that are not reaching out and have no desire to minister to those in need. However, the truth is the make up of those churches are liberal and conservative. The social gospel is only a secondary problem to the biggest one which is a poor and devalued view of scripture.
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If a man is able to love God with all his heart, mind, soul, and strength, then that man will be a saved man. An unsaved man cannot do that. He lives as an enemy to God. It is impossible for him to please God.BaptistBeliever said:
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
Jesus's answer was to another question:
Luke 10:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
--Not satisfied with the answer Jesus gave him, and wanting to engage him further in theological debate (as you are doing here), he wanting to justify himself, asked a completely different question: "Who is my neighbor."
To that question Jesus answered by giving the story of the Good Samaritan, a story that has nothing to do with salvation.
"What is written in the law, that do."BaptistBeliever said:
Are you able to keep the law? The answer is no.
In fact here is what the Bible says about that:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
You must continue in all things, every single law that is written, and not break a single one, throughout your entire life--from birth to death. You are not permitted to break one law, no not one. If you but sin one time in your life the Bible here says that you are cursed. You must continue in ALL things that are written in the law to do them--all things, all the time, all of your life.
Jesus said: Keep the law and you shall live.
The problem is that you cannot keep the law.
You cannot keep the OT law.
You cannot fully keep the two great commands that he gave, as I explained them to you. You can and should try. But you cannot. You will fail.
The law tells us how much of a failure we are; particularly how much of a sinner we are. It leads us to Christ. We are sinners in need of a Saviour. The law points us to Christ. It is our "school-master pointing us in the direction of Christ. No man can keep the law.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: What kind of double talk is this? “DHK: You can and should try. But you cannot. You will fail.” Such comments are not only confusing but make a mockery of the commandment of God to man by injecting the false notion that man is not able to do what God commands of him even with the strength and help God has promised to afford man. It makes a mockery out of passages such as the following. “1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”
Furthermore, DHK’s comments suggest that man is to try to do that which is in reality an impossibility. It is impossible for the mind to attempt to achieve that which it believes is an impossibility. It is clearly absurd to tell a person to try and achieve that which the mind realizes is impossible. Is it not time to stop telling man what he cannot do when God states clearly that with His help we can do ‘all things through Christ that strengeneth us?’ What is it DHK that God will not help man overcome if the heart is set upon God? What temptation is so strong that God’s hand is shortened?
God is not a taskmaster commanding the impossible out of man. If it was not within our reach with the help God has promised to afford us, God would not have commanded obedience.
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Heavenly Pilgrim said:
Be ye holy as I am holy. Are you as holy as God.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Are you as perfect as God?
Be conformed to the image of Christ.
Are you conformed (just like) Jesus in every way?
Are there commands in the Bible that we cannot totally reach, but rather are to strive toward, and will never reach until we get to heaven.
Absolutely.
Yes, man is often commanded to do that which is impossible.
The Bible itself states that to keep the entirety of the law is impossible, and yet tells us that we are to keep the law.
Is this verse a possibility for you:
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--Do you cast down every evil or needless imagination--those things that are not holy.
--Do you cast down every high thing (proud) that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
--Do you bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ--every single thought of your life--is it brought to the obedience of Christ? Have you never sinned in your thought life? Never? Not even once?
God is holy; are you? Perhaps positionally; but practically? Are you as holy as God is?
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Do you honestly think that you are keeping this law in its every aspect all of the time?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Let’s say that one claims that he is not perfect as God is perfect. What does that prove? I would rather believe God telling me that He will help me be exactly what He commands out of me than a mere man telling me that I cannot. One is the Word of the Most High God and the other that of a mere human. Certainly the perfection we are commanded to obtain is not absolute perfection for we are finite and subject to error and misunderstanding. Just the same, there is no reason, being promised Divine aide, that we cannot be morally perfect before Him,...... unles you believe that some things are impossible with God. If there was only one man other than Christ that was such, Job, who God declared to be as such, there was one that proved it could be done.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
HP: What does it prove if I am not? Does it necessitate the idea that if I am not conformed to Christ in every way, or that I never become conformed to Christ in every way that it is impossible to be conformed to the image of Christ as commanded or that I never will be conformed to the image of Chrit as commanded? If there is a mountain that no one has climbed, does that necessitate the idea that it cannot be climbed or that no one will ever reach it’s summit? God tells us 2Co 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.” When we start developing our theology by comparing ourselves to the lives of others and not by the Word of God we are in jeopardy of losing our way.
HP: Let the reader carefully note that no Scripture reference stating such has been offered by DHK. He has assumed that from either his own experience or that of others, but not from the Word of God. Are we to believe DHK, seeing things from his limited perspective or are we to believe God when He promises the strength to do all things through Christ which strengthens us and has promised to make a way of escape for us under ever temptation or trial? I for one, with the Lord’s help, will keep my eyes focused on God and His provision.
HP: I missed your Biblical reference that supports your assumption. Tell us DHK, just what is it that you obviously see as impossible for God to acomplish in our lives?
HP: God commands no impossibilities. If we are not living up to that verse, today would be a good day to start by asking for forgiveness for our willful failures, and begin afresh seeking the Lord to make that a reality in our lives this very day!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: The law only ‘binds’ those that are disobedient to its tenants and demands. As we walk in the light as He is in the light we have blessed fellowship with God. As we move away from obedience, then and then only does the law start to bind. If we love God with our whole heart, obedience to His commands are not grievous, neither do they bind. “My yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Following the law of God should not be any more difficult than pleasing a spouse that one loves. I certainly do not feel bound by acting in love towards my wife and family but there are many things I must not do, and many things I must do, to enjoy and maintain that relationship of love.
If loving God by being obedient to the commands in Scripture binds one, I would wonder if in fact their heart is honestly set on God. Wouldn’t you?
Being "bound" by the law is being under it's curse. The soul that sins shall die. The wages of sin is death. Christ took that curse upon Himself, so that we would could live.Heavenly Pilgrim said:
As you say, when you act in love towards your wife, it strengthens your relationship. But when you do something that hurts your wife, your relationship suffers for a time, but you do not divorce or end the relationship. Such as it is with God. It is our heart's desire to love and please our Lord, but sometimes we sin against Him. Our realtionship is not severed, but only suffers for a time until we repent and come back to Him.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Ro 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
You are right that indeed God does suffer for a time with us as believers and sinners for that matter. Just the same, the warnings are clear in Scripture for those that refuse to turn and repent. Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
The key is to repent and turn to the Lord and come back to Him as you say. The notion that needs to be dispelled is the false notion of OSAS in that once in grace always in grace in spite of continued disobedience and in spite of repentance and coming back to Him by faith. God’s Spirit will not always strive with man. This is the day, if needs be, to renew our obedience to Him while God’s Spirit is still striving with us. We need to have a holy fear of disobedience and going our own way despite the warnings of Scripture of impending doom for those that do not the truth.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
This is man's vain philosophy and an attempt to human reasoning to evade the command that God gave:
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
It is a command that Jesus gave.
It is a command that HP cannot keep.
But yet HP gives a philosophy and basically says: What does it matter?
To God it matters a great deal!!
It proves that you have no regard for the commands of the Bible; no regard for holiness; no regard for being Christlke, and a careless attitude for the things of this world, which according to James 4:4 are at enmity with God.
You answer the question for yourself!
Are you at this point in your life conformed in every way to the image of Christ?
Are you just like he was--sinless, perfect, exuding the fruit of the Spirit all the time in your life?
When will that time come in your lifetime here on this earth? Please explain.
The Bible here compares ourselves not with one another but with Christ. Do you compare yourself with sinless Son of God; to Christ Himself; to the King of Kings; the Creator of the Universe?
How do you measure up? Are you as perfect and sinless as He? Have you been conformed completely to his image? You may strive to be more like him; but tell me, when are you going to be just like Him in every way? Will you be crucified and die on the cross as well?
This is a false accusation as I have provided you with Scripture. Either you cannot read or are Biblically illiterate. Which is it?
What does Matthew 5:48 say? I quoted it for you.
What does Romans 8:29 say? I referred to a number of times. I didn't quote the whole verse. I will now since you complain about it:
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Have you obeyed? Are you totally conformed to image of His Son?
Are you as perfect as God?
There are some things that God will not fully accomplish in our lives until we reach heaven. Sanctification is one of those things.
Perfecftion is another.
Being conformed to His image is another.
Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength may be another. I do not believe that you are capable of doing this. If you are demonstrate it to me. Show me in a practical way how you carry out this command.
I don't want to hear your vain philosophies. I want to hear the Biblical outworking of a practical theology. Theology is useless unless it has a practical application in your own life. I want to know how you apply these Scriptures to your own life.
JustChristian
New Member
John of Japan said:So let me get this straight. Swaimj gives a perfectly good description of theological liberalism, you respond to it as if he were talking about political liberalism, and then you say that other people mix the two up???
The moderator defined the thread by stating that it is about liberalism (no restrictions) not about fundamentalism. I was just trying to further clarify it. I wasn't replying to anyone specifically just to everyone who posts here.
JustChristian
New Member
DHK said:
Did YOU read the title of this thread? The title doesn't exclude any type of liberal from discussion.