What is a liberal?

[DHK]

HP: What objective fact of the gospel does not the devil himself believe in? Objective facts, even our subjective mental assent acknowledging the truth of objective facts saves no one. Truth in and of itself, nor the mere acknowledgement of truth, saves no one. Obedience to the truth via repentance and faith does.

Objective:
I believe that Jesus Christ lived, died, was buried, arose again.
Secondly, Based on the above information I believe he paid the penalty for my sins. (also objective but a more difficult fact to believe)
Third, therefore I believed on him that he took the penalty of my sins personally, and forgave me, and therefore I was saved. This, based on all the facts above was a subjective experience, but based on objective and true promises, had to logically have an objective and true outcome.

The Pharisees could not deny many objective facts:
--his life, death, burial, resurrection (though they tried).
But they do deny that his atoning work on the cross was for them. They reject it. To them it is subjective. Based on that decision, another rejection follows--the rejection of Christ as Saviour.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I believe that Jesus Christ lived, died, was buried, arose again.
Secondly, Based on the above information I believe he paid the penalty for my sins. (also objective but a more difficult fact to believe)

HP: The objective fact is that Christ died ‘for the sins of the whole world.’ God mandated man to fulfill certain conditions in order for that objective fact to be made effective in each individuals life. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.”

The fact of repentance being a condition to salvation is as much an absolute objective fact as the absolute objective fact that Christ died for the sins of the entire world. Believing the mere absolute objective fact that unless one repents they shall indeed perish no more damns a person than believing the absolute objective fact that Christ has paid the penalty for their sins saves them. Believing objective facts, in and of themselves, neither saves nor damns anyone. The fulfillment of the conditions of salvation God mandates, or the failure to do so is that which saves and or seals ones fate. Hope of salvation apart from the fulfilment of the stated conditions is a false hope. It is paramount to attempting to enter the sheepfold by another menas other than the door, Christ and His prescibed conditions.

 

[DHK]

HP: The objective fact is that Christ died ‘for the sins of the whole world.’ God mandated man to fulfill certain conditions in order for that objective fact to be made effective in each individuals life. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.”

True.

Believing the mere absolute objective fact that unless one repents they shall indeed perish no more damns a person than believing the absolute objective fact that Christ has paid the penalty for their sins saves them. Believing objective facts, in and of themselves, neither saves nor damns anyone.

This is false and goes quite contrary to what Jesus said:

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If you believe you have eternal life.
If you don't believe you are condemned, and even more emphatically--condemned already or condemned as long as you remain in a state of unbelief.
Believing is very objective. Unbelief in Christ is the only sin that will send a person to Hell.

 

[Ed Edwards]

What is a Liberal?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: The objective fact is that Christ died ‘for the sins of the whole world.’ God mandated man to fulfill certain conditions in order for that objective fact to be made effective in each individuals life. “Unless ye repent ye shall all likewise perish.”

DHK: True.

HP: Believing the mere absolute objective fact that unless one repents they shall indeed perish no more damns a person than believing the absolute objective fact that Christ has paid the penalty for their sins saves them. Believing objective facts, in and of themselves, neither saves nor damns anyone.

DHK: This is false and goes quite contrary to what Jesus said:

HP: Then how can you say true to the first statement? You cannot agree that there are stated conditions, repentance being one of them, that without which no salvation is possible, and then claim that there can be salvation apart from the conditions being fulfilled. That would be a stark contradiction.

DHK: John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

HP: Belief in the case of salvation cannot portray a mere head knowledge for the very reason I gave above in my first statement that you said you agree with. Simply believing objective truths, in and of themselves, can save no one. Only as ones ‘belief’ incorporates the idea of obedience to the mandated conditions can belief be understood to save, repentance being the first mandated commandment.

DHK: John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

HP: This verse does nothing to prove your point. You have to start from the false presupposition that belief is merely head knowledge or a mere mental assent in order to arrive at your conclusion. As I have pointed out, Scripture clearly mandates repentance, without which no salvation will be accomplished. Therefore, belief must include the active participation of the will in obedience as signified by repentance in order to fulfill the condition of belief.

The verse simply points out that IF one has believed to the saving of the soul, which of necessity must include repentance, he has indeed passed from death to life. But if one has not believed on the Son, as evinced by sincere repentance and faith in the shed blood of Christ, such a one shall not see life eternal, and the wrath of God continues to abide on him the same as it has done since the individual committed their first sin.

DHK: If you believe you have eternal life.

HP: Not if that belief is a mere mental assent apart from true sincere repentance.

DHK: If you don't believe you are condemned, and even more emphatically--condemned already or condemned as long as you remain in a state of unbelief.

HP: I agree with that. :thumbs:

DHK: Believing is very objective. Unbelief in Christ is the only sin that will send a person to Hell.

HP: I could not disagree more. Belief denotes when the individual not only has accepted the absolute truth of what Christ has done for us, but has yielded their will in voluntary surrender to the demands of the gospel message, repentance being the first, without which no man shall be saved. Belief is at its core a subjective process as the mind first subjectively accepts the truth and then formulates intent in accordance to the demands of truth, repentance again being the first, without which no man believes to the saving of the soul.

There is not one Scripture in the Word of God that states or insinuates that unbelief is the only sin that will send a man to hell. The ones you mentioned previously in no way establish your conjecture as fact.

 

[DHK]

HP: Belief in the case of salvation cannot portray a mere head knowledge for the very reason I gave above in my first statement that you said you agree with. Simply believing objective truths, in and of themselves, can save no one. Only as ones ‘belief’ incorporates the idea of obedience to the mandated conditions can belief be understood to save, repentance being the first mandated commandment.

I simply quoted Scripture. You are the one that is arguing with: John 3:16,18,36. They are the words of Jesus. I don't calll him a liar, and yet you infer that he is. His words are true and infallible. Your problem is that you are the one that changes the meaning of the words that Jesus uses as you go along. I take the words of Jesus at face value as he meant them. He meant what he said. His promises are true and faithful. Did he speak the truth or was it a lie.

He that believeth hath life.
He that believeth not is condemned already.

The only sin that condemns a person to Hell is unbelief in Christ. This is the only logical conclusion from all that Christ said in these three verses. You are the one that is reading into what Jesus said different meanings that are not there. That constitutes calling Christ a liar.

 

[Andre]

HP: I could not disagree more. Belief denotes when the individual not only has accepted the absolute truth of what Christ has done for us, but has yielded their will in voluntary surrender to the demands of the gospel message, repentance being the first, without which no man shall be saved. Belief is at its core a subjective process as the mind first subjectively accepts the truth and then formulates intent in accordance to the demands of truth, repentance again being the first, without which no man believes to the saving of the soul.

I think you are right in asserting the above.

The fact that we often use the term "believe" to connote intellectual assent to a proposition (e.g. I believe the sun is 150 million km away) does not mean that the author of a book in the Scriptures, or Jesus in particular, intended us to understand the term "believe" in this sames "intellectualized" way.

 

[DHK]

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I think you are right in asserting the above.

The fact that we often use the term "believe" to connote intellectual assent to a proposition (e.g. I believe the sun is 150 million km away) does not mean that the author of a book in the Scriptures, or Jesus in particular, intended us to understand the term "believe" in this sames "intellectualized" way.

That is an easy "cop-out."

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It doesn't matter what our "subjective opinion" of the word means. Words do have meanings. The fact is that the word that Jesus used had a definite meaning, and the meaning that both you and HP attached to it is wrong. To even suggest that Jesus simply meant "mental assent" is also to suggest that Jesus was deceiving people and therefore a liar. Is that really where you want to place yourself? Your obligation is to fnd out the meaning of the word that Jesus used even if it means going to the Greek language, using the historical context in which it was said, cross referencing with other Scripture in which the same word is said in other similar contexts, etc. Have you done your homework before making such statements?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: To even suggest that Jesus simply meant "mental assent" is also to suggest that Jesus was deceiving people and therefore a liar.

HP: Now that is indeed quite a statement coming from you DHK.:thumbs: Although I have never nor would I ever make any such suggestion concerning Christ’s words, it is nice to see that you do not believe that belief is a mere mental assent. I will forgive the rest of what you said with that admission. Let no one wonder about what I believe either. I certainly do not believe that belief entails a mere mental assent either.

Now with that new piece of information concerning your beliefs, tell us what belief entails? Show us your faith without your formed intentions of repentance, but I will show you my faith by my formed intents of repentance, for belief without repentance is as dead as faith is without works, being alone. One says they desire to believe? The command is to ‘bring forth fruits mete for repentance.’

 

[JustChristian]

A liberal is a person who believes he has a social duty to love his neighbor and recognizes that all his neighbors don't have an equal ability to help themselves and plan ahead.

In my Bible it doesn't call this a "social duty."

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If your neighbor isn't a Christian they don't recognize that they should do the same for you. I suppose I'm a liberal.

 

[JustChristian]

I simply quoted Scripture. You are the one that is arguing with: John 3:16,18,36. They are the words of Jesus. I don't calll him a liar, and yet you infer that he is. His words are true and infallible. Your problem is that you are the one that changes the meaning of the words that Jesus uses as you go along. I take the words of Jesus at face value as he meant them. He meant what he said. His promises are true and faithful. Did he speak the truth or was it a lie.

He that believeth hath life.
He that believeth not is condemned already.

The only sin that condemns a person to Hell is unbelief in Christ. This is the only logical conclusion from all that Christ said in these three verses. You are the one that is reading into what Jesus said different meanings that are not there. That constitutes calling Christ a liar.

This too is straightt from the same Bible:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[DHK]

This too is straightt from the same Bible:

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Did you have a point in quoting these Scriptures from James? If so, I missed it.