What Is A Predenominational Christian?

[Dr. Walter]

I do not think I am the only true Christian on earth, but I am convinced that there are millions of true Christians. This does not mean, however, that I recognize denominational churches as true churches of Christ.

When we read in the New Testament about Christ's church, it helps our understanding of it if we think of it as Christ's spiritual body or Christ's spiritual house. When the Lord added to the church daily (Acts 2:47), He added to His spiritual body or spiritual house. When I say it is a spiritual body or spiritual house, I do not mean it is an invisible, non-physical body or house, but it is a body or house made up of Christians. Jesus promised to build to completion this spiritual body or spiritual house (Mat. 16:18), and He is now doing so one lively stone at a time (I Pet. 2:5). This is the spiritual body or spiritual house that will spend eternity with Him.

Yes, and these were CHURCHES just as we find in the New Testament, just like the one at Ephesus (Acts 20:28) which was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.

The major error of your position is that you fail to see that each and every New Testament church is a "temple" of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 3:16), indeed Paul characterizes the church at Corinth:

"YE (not we) are God's husbandy, YE are God's building....Know YE not that YE are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in YOU?........YE are the body of Christ " - I Cor. 3:9,16; 12:27

In each case he excluded himself as he was not part of this spritiual husbandry, building, temple or body. Paul wrote to churches that he was instrumental as their "master builder" (I Cor. 3:10) and he knew all the initial members by their profession of faith according to their mouth and and according to baptism and had no problem referring to the whole church in language of accomodation - brethren, saints, redeemed, beloved, elect, bought, saved, etc, as the introduction of every epistle clearly demonstrates.

Your biggest argument is that you IMAGINE or SUPPOSE that lost members were among the churches and so that makes it impossible to characterize each church as God's building, temple, body and husbandry. Paul addressed them according to their profession and according to those who met the prerequisite for church membership in baptism.

So each New Testament church is a "spiritual" body made up of spiritual stones that Jesus built through human instrumentality (I Cor. 3:6-15) and continues to "build up" as His spiritual temple, husbandry, building and body.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Christ's church is the temple of the Holy Spirit, even when it is manifested in a particular city. Paul did not say to a local denominational church like yours, "Ye are God's building, God's temple, and Christ's body." He said to the members of Christ's one true church who lived in and around Corinth, "Ye are God's building, God's temple, and Christ's body." (I am not, of course, quoting Paul verbatim here.) The fact that he did not say, "we" does not mean he was excluding himself from being a part of Christ's church with them (see I Cor. 12:13, where he includes himself in Christ's church with them).

 

[Dr. Walter]

Christ's church is the temple of the Holy Spirit, even when it is manifested in a particular city. Paul did not say to a local denominational church like yours, "Ye are God's building, God's temple, and Christ's body." He said to the members of Christ's one true church who lived in and around Corinth, "Ye are God's building, God's temple, and Christ's body." (I am not, of course, quoting Paul verbatim here.) The fact that he did not say, "we" does not mean he was excluding himself from being a part of Christ's church with them (see I Cor. 12:13, where he includes himself in Christ's church with them).

If your theory were correct Paul would have repeatedly used the first person plural pronoun "we" instead of "ye" but by excluding himself he demonstrates he is not a part of "God's building...God's husbandry....the temple of the Spirit....the body of Christ" he is addressing.

 

[Tom Butler]

Some random observations.

Paul described the church at Corinth as THE body of Christ. This is the same body he described as carnal back in I Cor 3.

It is the same body of Christ he castigated in chapter 11 for how it observed the Lord's Supper. It is the same body of Christ Paul criticized for not disciplining a man who was having an affair with his father's wife. It is the same body of Christ Paul ripped for it's over-emphasis on tongues. Yet Paul never suggested it was not a true body of Christ. In fact, he called it THE body of Christ.

It is also the same true church which "came together," assembled.

So, proponents of the "one true church" idea have a semantic problem. How can there be "one true church" at Corinth and another "one true church" at Ephesus. Seems to me you have two "true churches," not one.

Paul was quite clear. He did not say Corinth was part of the body of Christ. He said Corinth WAS the body of Christ. And he began his first letter by addressing it "unto THE church of God which is at Corinth." Or, unto THE body of Christ which is at Corinth.

Since the local congregation I serve seeks to pattern itself after New Testament churches (warts and all), then we are also THE body of Christ.

We are a Baptist congregation. And, as every other Baptist congregation of like faith and order, we believe that our doctrines and practices are consistent with those of New Testament churches. Thus, we are a New Testament church. We are a true church. The label Baptist is shorthand for what we believe and practice. We didn't name ourselves, our enemies did.

And our spiritual ancestors were around from the beginning. Before denominations.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Some random observations.

Paul described the church at Corinth as THE body of Christ. This is the same body he described as carnal back in I Cor 3.

It is the same body of Christ he castigated in chapter 11 for how it observed the Lord's Supper. It is the same body of Christ Paul criticized for not disciplining a man who was having an affair with his father's wife. It is the same body of Christ Paul ripped for it's over-emphasis on tongues. Yet Paul never suggested it was not a true body of Christ. In fact, he called it THE body of Christ.

It is also the same true church which "came together," assembled.

So, proponents of the "one true church" idea have a semantic problem. How can there be "one true church" at Corinth and another "one true church" at Ephesus. Seems to me you have two "true churches," not one.

Paul was quite clear. He did not say Corinth was part of the body of Christ. He said Corinth WAS the body of Christ. And he began his first letter by addressing it "unto THE church of God which is at Corinth." Or, unto THE body of Christ which is at Corinth.

Since the local congregation I serve seeks to pattern itself after New Testament churches (warts and all), then we are also THE body of Christ.

We are a Baptist congregation. And, as every other Baptist congregation of like faith and order, we believe that our doctrines and practices are consistent with those of New Testament churches. Thus, we are a New Testament church. We are a true church. The label Baptist is shorthand for what we believe and practice. We didn't name ourselves, our enemies did.

And our spiritual ancestors were around from the beginning. Before denominations.

Well said! The advocates of the one true "spiritual" temple feel that a church with flaws like that church which is at Corinth could not be the spiritual "temple" Jesus built and is building up because of these flaws. However, Paul tells the Epheian church that Jesus is now washing it by the water of the word and you don't wash something that is already clean. That is the difference between an unglorified temple and a glorified one.

The advocates of the one true "spiritual" temple feel that since lost professors may be members of the "temple" at Corinth it cannot possibly be the true "spiritual" temple. However, Paul addressed ALL the members as "saints" and "redeemed" and other language of accomodation right at the beginning of each letter and throughout the letters due to their profession, due to the qualifications for church membership not according to omnscience of the actual spiritual status of every member.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

The members of Christ's one true church are far from perfect, but they are converted human beings. They are new creatures in Christ. They are not children of the Devil.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The members of Christ's one true church are far from perfect, but they are converted human beings. They are new creatures in Christ. They are not children of the Devil.

Of course you say that by way of personal omniscience or by inferring Paul was addressing them by personal omniscience????

Just because Paul uses the langauge of redemption in describing his abstract teaching of the church does not mean he is describing a church that may not include lost people in its membership as he addresses every local church and ALL of their members WITH THE VERY SAME LANGUAGE OF REDEMPTION!!!!

So you can't have it both ways. If you are going to demand that redemptive terms prove that every member must be saved when Paul describes the church abstractly then you must demand that the members of every local church Paul addresses must be saved as well because he addresses them with the same language.

 

[DHK]

The members of Christ's one true church are far from perfect, but they are converted human beings. They are new creatures in Christ. They are not children of the Devil.

Nine of Paul's epistles are written to local churches that are named: Corinth, Philippi, Ephesus, etc.; three are written to pastors of local churches: Timothy and Titus.
John records seven local churches in the Book of Revelation that Christ writes to. They are all listed by name.
To deny the existence of local churches in the Bible is to deny the teaching of the Bible itself. The doctrine is so very clear.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Some random observations.

Paul described the church at Corinth as THE body of Christ. This is the same body he described as carnal back in I Cor 3.

It is the same body of Christ he castigated in chapter 11 for how it observed the Lord's Supper. It is the same body of Christ Paul criticized for not disciplining a man who was having an affair with his father's wife. It is the same body of Christ Paul ripped for it's over-emphasis on tongues. Yet Paul never suggested it was not a true body of Christ. In fact, he called it THE body of Christ.

It is also the same true church which "came together," assembled.

So, proponents of the "one true church" idea have a semantic problem. How can there be "one true church" at Corinth and another "one true church" at Ephesus. Seems to me you have two "true churches," not one.

Paul was quite clear. He did not say Corinth was part of the body of Christ. He said Corinth WAS the body of Christ. And he began his first letter by addressing it "unto THE church of God which is at Corinth." Or, unto THE body of Christ which is at Corinth.

Since the local congregation I serve seeks to pattern itself after New Testament churches (warts and all), then we are also THE body of Christ.

We are a Baptist congregation. And, as every other Baptist congregation of like faith and order, we believe that our doctrines and practices are consistent with those of New Testament churches. Thus, we are a New Testament church. We are a true church. The label Baptist is shorthand for what we believe and practice. We didn't name ourselves, our enemies did.

And our spiritual ancestors were around from the beginning. Before denominations.

Brother Tom, I used to write articles just like this one when I was a Landmark Baptist, but I disagree with it now. First of all, Christ's one true church and body is not a mixed multitude of saved and unsaved human beings. Secondly, it is made manifest in every city, town, or village where there are true Christians, but there is only one body of Christ. Thirdly, it is not a denominational church. Denominations divide the one true church and body of Christ. Fourthly, the one and only Baptist in the New Testament was an unbaptized, unchurched individual.

I do not doubt your sincerity for one minute, and I admire your zeal. The sooner you realize that there are no unsaved people in the body of Christ, the sooner you will stop defining your church as a body of Christ, and the better off you will be. The New Testament doctrine of the unity or oneness of the true church and body of Christ is a great blessing that promotes brotherly love, and you are missing out on this blessing by being involved in sectarianism.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Brother Tom, I used to write articles just like this one when I was a Landmark Baptist, but I disagree with it now. First of all, Christ's one true church and body is not a mixed multitude of saved and unsaved human beings. Secondly, it is made manifest in every city, town, or village where there are true Christians, but there is only one body of Christ. Thirdly, it is not a denominational church. Denominations divide the one true church and body of Christ. Fourthly, the one and only Baptist in the New Testament was an unbaptized, unchurched individual.

I do not doubt your sincerity for one minute, and I admire your zeal. The sooner you realize that there are no unsaved people in the body of Christ, the sooner you will stop defining your church as a body of Christ, and the better off you will be. The New Testament doctrine of the unity or oneness of the true church and body of Christ is a great blessing that promotes brotherly love, and you are missing out on this blessing by being involved in sectarianism.

Like I said, you have no basis to teach that the body of Christ, God's building, God's husbandry, God's temple, God's church does not consist of lost professors in its unglorified condition. The same language of redemption that you base your theory upon is applied to ALL the members of each congregation addressed by Paul. Even those members he knows to be in open sin he calls a "brother" (I Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6).

 

[lori4dogs]

Brother Tom, I used to write articles just like this one when I was a Landmark Baptist, but I disagree with it now. First of all, Christ's one true church and body is not a mixed multitude of saved and unsaved human beings. Secondly, it is made manifest in every city, town, or village where there are true Christians, but there is only one body of Christ. Thirdly, it is not a denominational church. Denominations divide the one true church and body of Christ. Fourthly, the one and only Baptist in the New Testament was an unbaptized, unchurched individual.

I do not doubt your sincerity for one minute, and I admire your zeal. The sooner you realize that there are no unsaved people in the body of Christ, the sooner you will stop defining your church as a body of Christ, and the better off you will be. The New Testament doctrine of the unity or oneness of the true church and body of Christ is a great blessing that promotes brotherly love, and you are missing out on this blessing by being involved in sectarianism.

You are absolutely right! The Body of Christ includes NO unsaved people. We are ONE body. Of that, the New Testament is abudantly clear. The Lord knows His sheep!

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are absolutely right! The Body of Christ includes NO unsaved people. We are ONE body. Of that, the New Testament is abudantly clear. The Lord knows His sheep!

Lori, what church are you speaking about? The future glorified church after the resurrection? The church you are a member of? What church is it?

 

[DHK]

You are absolutely right! The Body of Christ includes NO unsaved people. We are ONE body. Of that, the New Testament is abudantly clear. The Lord knows His sheep!

If you agree with him then leave the RCC, forsake going to any local church of any kind, and just be a member of "the body of Christ," however you wish to define it. His definition is to the exclusion of all local churches.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

God purchased the entire church with His own blood (Acts 20:28). Christ loved the entire church and gave Himself for it (Eph. 5:25). Christ is the Head of the
entire church and the Saviour of His entire body (Eph. 5:23). The Lord nourishes and cherishes His entire church (Eph. 5:29). These truths do not apply to unsaved institutional church members. They apply to the aggregate of Christians, or to the one body of Christ.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

If you agree with him then leave the RCC, forsake going to any local church of any kind, and just be a member of "the body of Christ," however you wish to define it. His definition is to the exclusion of all local churches.

No, my definition of the body of Christ is not to the exclusion of ALL local churches. It does not exclude city-wide, non-sectarian, New Covenant assemblies that promote the oneness of the Lord's true church and body.

 

[Dr. Walter]

God purchased the entire church with His own blood (Acts 20:28). Christ loved the entire church and gave Himself for it (Eph. 5:25). Christ is the Head of the
entire church and the Saviour of His entire body (Eph. 5:23). The Lord nourishes and cherishes His entire church (Eph. 5:29). These truths do not apply to unsaved institutional church members. They apply to the aggregate of Christians, or to the one body of Christ.

The ENTIRE church in Acts 20:28 is the church located at Ephesus! This ENTIRE church is pastored by the elders at Ephesus. The church located at Ephesus is the ONLY CHURCH that the Holy Spirit made those in verse 17 the overseers of and charged to feed! The church purchased with his blood is the flock they are told to feed. The flock they are told to feed can be ENTERED by wolves.

Again, Paul addresses even those he knows are in open sin and need to be excluded from the church as a "brother" (1 Cor. 5:11; 2 Thes. 3:6, 14). How much more would he address the church located at Ephesus as purchased by the blood of Christ??????

You have no Biblical basis to make the distinction you are trying to make in regard to the unglorified church of Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

No, my definition of the body of Christ is not to the exclusion of ALL local churches. It does not exclude city-wide, non-sectarian, New Covenant assemblies that promote the oneness of the Lord's true church and body.

Then you have TWO meanings of the term "church" as you have TWO different applications and thus TWO kinds instead of "one body" in number.

Your definition of the plural "churches" cannot be the same defintion of your singular "church" thus two kinds, with two meanings but the Scriptures only speak of "ONE" in kind and in meaning and it is "ONE" in number to the reader - the one in number he is a member of which is the same or "one" in kind which other New testament believers were members of.

A church different in kind cannot be the same in number.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

When we are baptized, we are baptized into union with Jesus Christ, into union with His death, burial, and resurrection, and into union with His one body (Rom. 6:3-6; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:26-29). This insures the fact that there are no unsaved people in the one body of Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

When we are baptized, we are baptized into union with Jesus Christ, into union with His death, burial, and resurrection, and into union with His one body (Rom. 6:3-6; I Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:26-29). This insures the fact that there are no unsaved people in the one body of Christ.

Sure, if baptism actually saves everyone that submits to it!!! However, I thought you rejected baptismal regeneration?????

The truth is that we are brought into spiritual union with Christ BEFORE we are baptized, BEFORE we confess Christ with our mouth WHEN "with our heart a man believeth unto righteousness."

With the heart man believeth unto righteousness BEFORE with his mouth he confesses unto salvation BEFORE he is regarded fit for baptism.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

I should have said, "When repentant believers are baptized . . . "