What Is (And Isn't) "Legalism"?

[ktn4eg]

I remember while in the AOG church, had a couple move up north to MI from the South...

They were appalled that we allowed mix swimming for the teens, that we would allow girls/boys to swim together , yet they saw no problem with taking tobacco or a shot fro lunch!

Along that same line, when I was still a student at Clarksville Bapt College (Class of 1976; BA in Bible & Relig. Educ. [summa cum laude]), there were a couple of new students from the Toledo, OH, area that entered when I was in my junior year. Both were apparently recommended by their home church's pastor.

Anyway, one weekend early in the school year, they entered a pool hall & shot a couple rounds of "friendly" pool amongst themselves. No betting; no drinking; no loud or boisterous manners nor "unbecoming-of-a-Bible-college-student-like" behavior---just a game or two, after which they left as quietly as they came in.

When they arrived back at the boys' dorm, they compliently reported back to the dorm supervisor just as the CBC Student Manual/Rules required. When the dorm supervisor found out that they had the gall to as much as set foot in such a "blatant 'den of "Sodom-and-Gomorrah-style" iniquity' as a POOL HALL, they were summarily hauled before the Dean of Students to face the wrath of his own "Bema" Seat!!!

What had they done??!!??

Why....why....They'd committed one of the unwritten CARDINAL sins by darkening the confines of a P-O-O-L Hall!!!!!

When they had lived back in the Toledo OH area, oftentimes some of their church's youth leaders would schedule a young peoples' outing at one of their communities' pool halls, and nothing "condemnable" happened there----any more than their meeting at a bowling alley or at a miniature golf place to just have a fun time. No booze, no drugs, no untoward advances w/the opposite gender---just good, plain fun. Period. End of discussion.

OTOH, when these same young men as much as entered this "Devil's Dungeon" (a/k/a pool hall), one would have thought that they'd committed THE sin unto DEATH!!

Eventually the clamour on both sides of the issue subsided, but there remained in the dark shadows that gnawing suspicion that those couple young men STILL had the very nerve as to wave their fists in the air in overt, brazen defiance against both God Himself and the "MOST HIGH-HOLY, SACREDLY INSPIRED FROM-THE-COUNCIL-HALLS-OF-eternity-PAST, INFALLIBLE 'STUDENT'S MANUAL'"!!!! :tonofbricks:

Ah....yes......."Them war the 'good times,'....I'm-a tellin' y'all!!!!!!!" :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:

 

[12strings]

We can begin to have the God like character of not lying in one of two ways. We can surrender ourselves to the work of the Holy Spirit in us to make us more like Christ or we can focus on ourselves and whip ourselves into better performance with the "help" of standards.

The moment we attempt to manipulate effect, we become like the Pharisee rather than the tax collector. The temptation to "do right" is strong. It is better to do what is natural and in truth and humility bring it to the Lord when we fail, as we will.

If we try to live the Christian life as error prevention, we experience the frustration of the flesh. If we live the Christian life as one of error correction, we find unlimited forgiveness from a loving Father when we come to Him in truth and humility.

I think you are rightly emphasizing the importance of who we ARE, but dangerously neglecting that it is linked to what we DO.

You have just said (bolded above) that instead of aiming to do what is right, I should do what comes naturally to me (sin) and then ask forgiveness. Instead of resisting the urge to look up pictures of women on the internet, I should "do what is natural"? Would that please God more?

This is not legalism or phariseeism. It is making it our aim, whether at home or away, to please HIM.

 

[Yeshua1]

Along that same line, when I was still a student at Clarksville Bapt College (Class of 1976; BA in Bible & Relig. Educ. [summa cum laude]), there were a couple of new students from the Toledo, OH, area that entered when I was in my junior year. Both were apparently recommended by their home church's pastor.

Anyway, one weekend early in the school year, they entered a pool hall & shot a couple rounds of "friendly" pool amongst themselves. No betting; no drinking; no loud or boisterous manners nor "unbecoming-of-a-Bible-college-student-like" behavior---just a game or two, after which they left as quietly as they came in.

When they arrived back at the boys' dorm, they compliently reported back to the dorm supervisor just as the CBC Student Manual/Rules required. When the dorm supervisor found out that they had the gall to as much as set foot in such a "blatant 'den of "Sodom-and-Gomorrah-style" iniquity' as a POOL HALL, they were summarily hauled before the Dean of Students to face the wrath of his own "Bema" Seat!!!

What had they done??!!??

Why....why....They'd committed one of the unwritten CARDINAL sins by darkening the confines of a P-O-O-L Hall!!!!!

When they had lived back in the Toledo OH area, oftentimes some of their church's youth leaders would schedule a young peoples' outing at one of their communities' pool halls, and nothing "condemnable" happened there----any more than their meeting at a bowling alley or at a miniature golf place to just have a fun time. No booze, no drugs, no untoward advances w/the opposite gender---just good, plain fun. Period. End of discussion.

OTOH, when these same young men as much as entered this "Devil's Dungeon" (a/k/a pool hall), one would have thought that they'd committed THE sin unto DEATH!!

Eventually the clamour on both sides of the issue subsided, but there remained in the dark shadows that gnawing suspicion that those couple young men STILL had the very nerve as to wave their fists in the air in overt, brazen defiance against both God Himself and the "MOST HIGH-HOLY, SACREDLY INSPIRED FROM-THE-COUNCIL-HALLS-OF-eternity-PAST, INFALLIBLE 'STUDENT'S MANUAL'"!!!! :tonofbricks:

Ah....yes......."Them war the 'good times,'....I'm-a tellin' y'all!!!!!!!" :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin: :tongue3:

That AOG church also had an Elder forced off Board due to him being caught smoking!
They elected me to repalce him on Elder board, but some gor miffed that they saw me in line for the movies....

They got quit when I asked them if theythought God liked a self rightous attitude!

 

[Tom Butler]

Our church business meeting minutes (which we have going back to 1901) record that a member was disfellowshipped in the late 1920s for gambling.

He invested in the stock market.

I'm serious.

 

[ktn4eg]

Reminds me of a SS supt. from another IFB church who worked at a place that provided accounting, etc., services for small businesses that couldn't afford to hire their own CPA's, etc.

A local movie theater office was one on this business's clients. In the course of this SS supt.'s work, he had to visit the movie theater's office, to entrance to which was the same as that of the movie ticket holders' doorways.

Sure enough, he arrived to visit the office just about the time that the PM matinee show was about to start. After approaching the box office (brief case in hand, mind you) he explained the nature of his calling on the theater's office, and then was escorted inside to complete his scheduled appointment.

In about an hour or so later, this SS supt. had got all the data he needed from the theater's management to complete his audit for the business. So, he shook hands & proceeded out the "general audience's" exit way.

Now, across the street there was this ladies' store of some sort. Well, it "just so happened" that Sister X, wife of that IFB church's Head of the Board of Deacons, had finished whatever shopping she was doing in that ladies' store.

When she glanced across the street, she saw Bro. Y, their SS supt. leave that theater!!!

Needless to say....next week there was an opening for that IFB church's SS supt. postion!! :thumbs: :tonofbricks:

Now....Who was it that I remember saying somewhere in.....I think it was John's Gospel.....Oh, yeah.....Here it is: "Judge not acording to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

In fact, her ladies SS class that Sister X had been teaching for years had just covered that portion of the Gospel of John just two weeks before!! :smilewinkgrin:

Sad. :tear:

 

[percho]

From: The Shaeshank Redemption


Red: Rehabilitated? (Legalism) Well, now let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means.
Man: Well, it means that you're ready to rejoin society...
Red: I know what you think it means, sonny. To me it's just a made up word.

A made up word so we can do what ever we like.

Ecc. 12:13,14 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

Not for salvation, for only the blood of the spotless and without blemish Lamb of God could justify and reconcile sinful man, which includes all who ever lived, to God and only through that Lamb, Jesus of Nazareth, being given life from the dead could death be overcome and Life be given to others.

And even after that was done, still the whole of the matter is above otherwise there would be no need for this: 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Thank God for that last verse.

 

[HankD]

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Thank God for that last verse.

Amen percho, and I think [most,many,all] of us have a lot to acknowledge because:

Romans 14:23c ... whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

HankD​

 

[timf]

You have just said (bolded above) that instead of aiming to do what is right, I should do what comes naturally to me (sin) and then ask forgiveness. Instead of resisting the urge to look up pictures of women on the internet, I should "do what is natural"? Would that please God more?

Here is the crux of the foothold gained by those who advocate rule based systems. The rule is held out as the solution because the only alternative is indulgence.

As a Christian, you should have a new nature. In those circumstances when we falter, we need to come to our Lord in humility and truth for forgiveness.

The choice is not binary. It is not either follow rules or do evil. You hint a little of that in you example. The person who chooses to forgo indulging the flesh in order to honor his Lord is expressing the freedom he has in Christ. The person who fears getting caught violating a rule may also show a clean Internet history. One person is growing in Christ-likeness, the other is feeling the despair of using the flesh to fight the flesh.

My objection against rule based Christianity is that it serves the flesh, feeds self-righteousness, and diverts us from being good (Christ-like, selfless) to doing good (conforming our actions to some standard, self-focused).

1. Have no rules (worldly liberal churches)
2. Have rules (conservative churches)
3. Become like Jesus (Biblical Christian maturity)

I see plenty of number one churches. A few number two churches and none of number three. While number one churches seldom have an interest in number three, many number two churches do. I would encourage those who are busy measuring each others works and tied up in regulations and control, to set aside those things that encumber.

 

[kyredneck]

We have the Pharisees as an example of "requirements" used for self-righteousness.

We have the Galatians as examples of additional requirements that elevate the flesh over the Spirit.

There is a type of judgment we are called to;

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

However, there is also room for diversity;

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

The problem with requirements and standards is that they tend to substitute for maturity and provide a comfortable place to park ourselves. Standards are often presented on the basis of helping us mature, but all too often they are a hindrance, diversion, or substitute for maturity.

We should be growing into the full image of Christ. If we grow in Christ, we grow in selflessness. If we grow in selflessness, we grow in love. If we grow in love, we fulfill the law.

If we shoot first for rule keeping, we strive in the flesh, quench the Spirit, and miss the boat when it comes to maturity. Jesus warned about the "leaven" of the Pharisees. If we focus on what we do, we lose sight of what God can do in us.

If we a growing in Christ-likeness, we do not need standards. If we are not growing in Christ-likeness, standards will not help.

Excellent post.

IMO, there is a synonomous relationship between Pharisaism, self righteousness, hypocrisy, and legalism.

And, IMO, we're warned of falling into it:

20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
21 Handle not, nor taste, nor touch
22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh. Col 2

 

[kyredneck]

I think you are rightly emphasizing the importance of who we ARE, but dangerously neglecting that it is linked to what we DO.

You have just said (bolded above) that instead of aiming to do what is right, I should do what comes naturally to me (sin) and then ask forgiveness. Instead of resisting the urge to look up pictures of women on the internet, I should "do what is natural"? Would that please God more?

This is not legalism or phariseeism. It is making it our aim, whether at home or away, to please HIM.

I understand where he's coming from. The Samaritan acted out of compassion, by nature of his heart, to help him who had fallen to the robbers. The priest and the Levite went to the other side of the road and walked on by.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

For those 'born from above' these good works do indeed come naturally:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. Jn 3:21

 

[12strings]

Here is the crux of the foothold gained by those who advocate rule based systems. The rule is held out as the solution because the only alternative is indulgence.

As a Christian, you should have a new nature. In those circumstances when we falter, we need to come to our Lord in humility and truth for forgiveness.

The choice is not binary. It is not either follow rules or do evil. You hint a little of that in you example. The person who chooses to forgo indulging the flesh in order to honor his Lord is expressing the freedom he has in Christ. The person who fears getting caught violating a rule may also show a clean Internet history. One person is growing in Christ-likeness, the other is feeling the despair of using the flesh to fight the flesh.

My objection against rule based Christianity is that it serves the flesh, feeds self-righteousness, and diverts us from being good (Christ-like, selfless) to doing good (conforming our actions to some standard, self-focused).

1. Have no rules (worldly liberal churches)
2. Have rules (conservative churches)
3. Become like Jesus (Biblical Christian maturity)

I see plenty of number one churches. A few number two churches and none of number three. While number one churches seldom have an interest in number three, many number two churches do. I would encourage those who are busy measuring each others works and tied up in regulations and control, to set aside those things that encumber.

I'm not advocating a rule-based system, but simply acknowledging that part of becoming like Jesus, and following Jesus, is obeying the commands he gives. Since we are told that our hearts are deceptive and that the desires of the flesh war against the desires of the spirit...we should recognize that obedience is an expression of love and honor for Christ.

Your advice to not try to do right, but rather to "do what comes naturally" does not fit the counsel of scripture...and fits more with your church example #1 than with #3. Both Jesus & Paul give lots of specific application, and even direct commands from God, with the expectation that communicating such things in a way that makes it clear they are expected to be obeyed would somehow be helpful to those people who were wanting to follow Christ. Paul tells Timothy to correct those who are in both doctrinal error and errors of practice.

 

[HankD]

Your advice to not try to do right, but rather to "do what comes naturally" does not fit the counsel of scripture...and fits more with your church example #1 than with #3. Both Jesus & Paul give lots of specific application, and even direct commands from God, with the expectation that communicating such things in a way that makes it clear they are expected to be obeyed would somehow be helpful to those people who were wanting to follow Christ. Paul tells Timothy to correct those who are in both doctrinal error and errors of practice.

I think a better way of saying it is "walk in the Spirit".

Make that walk the norm in your life and it will become your second nature.

How? Meditate in the Scriptures, consume them and you will become what you eat(spiritual).

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:​

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.​

HankD​

 

[12strings]

I think a better way of saying it is "walk in the Spirit".

Make that walk the norm in your life and it will become your second nature.

How? Meditate in the Scriptures, consume them and you will become what you eat(spiritual).

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:​

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.​

HankD​

I think that is a much better way to counsel someone.