What is Biblical Inerrancy?

[Bartimaeus]

Why is it that God tells me that I will be judge for every word that I have spoken? Are these preserved for all eternity so that I can give an account for them? Why would God preserve my exact words but not His?

PK,
Everyone is quick to correct you and advise you and admonish you, but......again.....very interesting........no one answers you.

No one has answered your question. No one has addressed the question. They want to deal with the issue as they have positions on it, yet they won't touch your question.

Bartimaeus.

 

[Jon-Marc]

What does Biblical inerrancy mean to you?

It means that everything in the Bible is accurately recorded--not that everything is true in it. Satan's lies are not true. Also, Paul was fond of expressing his own opinions on things and usually said that it was just that--his opinion and preference. I think we have to be careful what we take as gospel and build a religion around it. The gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is all true,a nd many other things. Some of it is symbolic--like trees and floods clapping their hands. I've never seen that happen yet.

 

[Bartimaeus]

It means that everything in the Bible is accurately recorded--not that everything is true in it. Satan's lies are not true. Also, Paul was fond of expressing his own opinions on things and usually said that it was just that--his opinion and preference. I think we have to be careful what we take as gospel and build a religion around it. The gospel of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is all true,a nd many other things. Some of it is symbolic--like trees and floods clapping their hands. I've never seen that happen yet.

IMHO You have a very precarious position on the scripture.

Bartimaeus

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Brother,
First you say we don't have the originals because they are exant. Then, you say the dead sea scrolls are "closer to the originals that we used".....
Very inconsistent. Which way is it? We have them or we don't have them.

Bartimaeus

No no no no. I said the originals are not in existance (not extant!). They were destroyed long ago. They were copied. The first copies were destroyed long ago. They were copied again. Those were destroyed long ago. Eventually, the copies in Jesus' day (for the OT) were saved by a group of Jews who lived in Qumran and those were lost (to be clear lost until 1948). But copies kept being made. All modern English translated bibles are translated from copied texts. The Qumran find in 1948 allows us to compare our copies to the copies made 2,000 years ago (closer to the originals than ours but still many years after them). The fact that there was no significant change leads us to believe that the copies 2,000 years ago (and by logic ours) are faithfully transmitted from the originals which NO LONGER EXIST. :BangHead:

 

[PK]

Why is it that God tells me that I will be judge for every word that I have spoken? Are these preserved for all eternity so that I can give an account for them? Why would God preserve my exact words but not His?
[ quote ]

The KJV you hold in your hands does not reflect God's 'exact words' PK.You know that the Lord did not speak in the English language while on earth, don't you?You are aware that the KJV-style of English is not the only God-honoring form of English that a Bible needs to have to actually be the Word of God -- don't you?

The 1395 Wycliffe Bible had "shalt be dampned" at the close of Matthew 12:37.Do you have a problem with that?

The NLTse has :"The words you will say will either acquit you or condemn you." for the entire verse.

The REB has :"For out of your own mouth you will be acquitted; out of your own mouth you will be condemned."

Thank You for taking the time to give my some insight but you did not answer my question...

 

[PK]

Why is it that God tells me that I will be judge for every word that I have spoken? Are these preserved for all eternity so that I can give an account for them? Why would God preserve my exact words but not His?
[ quote ]

The KJV you hold in your hands does not reflect God's 'exact words' PK.You know that the Lord did not speak in the English language while on earth, don't you?You are aware that the KJV-style of English is not the only God-honoring form of English that a Bible needs to have to actually be the Word of God -- don't you?

The 1395 Wycliffe Bible had "shalt be dampned" at the close of Matthew 12:37.Do you have a problem with that?

The NLTse has :"The words you will say will either acquit you or condemn you." for the entire verse.

The REB has :"For out of your own mouth you will be acquitted; out of your own mouth you will be condemned."

my point was that no matter what "version" you hold in your hand they all say we are accountable to God for every word we speak. So please answer my question...

Why do my exact words have the "privilege" of being preserved for me in eternity so that I may give an answer but God's exact Word gets lost in translation?

 

[Dale-c]

my point was that no matter what "version" you hold in your hand they all say we are accountable to God for every word we speak. So please answer my question...

Why do my exact words have the "privilege" of being preserved for me in eternity so that I may give an answer but God's exact Word gets lost in translation?

Ok, I will answer:
There is no promise that you written words will be around next week much less in 100 years or even 2000 years.
To compare that text with the preservation of God's word just doesn't fit the context.
God's Word however HAS been preserved. We may not have a Xerox copy of the original manuscripts but God has not only providentially preserved His Word in many centuries but also many languages throughout the earth as well. NONE of God's Words have been lost in translation. We may read the Bible in English but all of God's words are preserved.
Paul did not write the book of Romans in 16th century English.



Now since, I have answered your question, please answer a couple of mine:

1. If you insist on a 100% perfect and literal translation, which edition of the KJV contains 100% word for word THE Word of God?
There have been many revisions of the KJV and I highly doubt you use the 1611.

2. By what authority is the KJV "The Bible" and other translations are not, such as the Geneva Bible, the ASV, the NKJV and the NASB et al?

3. What was THE Bible in the years prior to 1611 in England and at what exact time did the KJV become "The Bible"


I have answered your question now please answer mine.

Thanks.

 

[Rippon]

my point was that no matter what "version" you hold in your hand they all say we are accountable to God for every word we speak. So please answer my question...

Why do my exact words have the "privilege" of being preserved for me in eternity so that I may give an answer but God's exact Word gets lost in translation?

A translation,as I have said many times, is an approximation.It can't be exact when crossing from one language to another.God's Word is not "lost in translation" however.God's Word is powerful. The Lord knows what He's doing.There are thousands of languages, but the Word is communicated to these varied people groups in various forms with God's stamp on them.

To be more "exact" one needs to know the original languages with no translation intruding. But the Lord helps us in our fraility.He condescends to us in a baby-like lisp by having His Word expressed in the stammering tongue of human languages.

Do you think the message of God's Word can only be communicated in one form only? If the form deviates from the wording of the KJV then the Word of God is lost?!

 

[PK]

Dale,
I will answer your questions but first I must deal with your answers to mine.

Ok, I will answer:
There is no promise that you written words will be around next week much less in 100 years or even 2000 years.
This is correct

DaleC - To compare that text with the preservation of God's word just doesn't fit the context.
By what will you be judge in heaven? Is it not the Word of God?
DaleC -God's Word however HAS been preserved. Is it the NIV, NASB, NKJB, etc? DaleC - We may not have a Xerox copy of the original manuscripts but God has not only providentially preserved His Word in many centuries but also many languages throughout the earth as well. NONE of God's Words have been lost in translation. Here are a few examples that someone gave me and I would like to pass them on to you. I appreciate the men and women who have studied all of the version to help with these inconsistencies.

Revelation 19:7-8 KJV
"the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS."

Revelation 19:7-8 (NIV, NASB, NKJB)
"the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the saints."
Revelation 19:7-8 (ESV)
"for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

Doctrine of Works?? Nothing lost here, right!!

Ps 78 can God be deceived by us? No, right? Lets look at the NASB and the Young translation.
Ps 78:36 - "But they deceived Him with their mouth And lied to Him with their tongue.
We could go on all night with these good examples. Looks like there are a few things getting lost in translation here. I can get you some verses that deal with doctrinal issues as well.

DaleC - We may read the Bible in English but all of God's words are preserved.Do you still think they have been preserved in the many English Bibles?
Paul did not write the book of Romans in 16th century English.Really?



Now since, I have answered your question, please answer a couple of mine:

1. If you insist on a 100% perfect and literal translation, which edition of the KJV contains 100% word for word THE Word of God?
There have been many revisions of the KJV and I highly doubt you use the 1611.

2. By what authority is the KJV "The Bible" and other translations are not, such as the Geneva Bible, the ASV, the NKJV and the NASB et al?

3. What was THE Bible in the years prior to 1611 in England and at what exact time did the KJV become "The Bible"


I have answered your question now please answer mine.

Thanks.

 

[PK]

A translation,as I have said many times, is an approximation.It can't be exact when crossing from one language to another.God's Word is not "lost in translation" however.God's Word is powerful. The Lord knows what He's doing.There are thousands of languages, but the Word is communicated to these varied people groups in various forms with God's stamp on them.

To be more "exact"By saying 'exact' you mean more accurate, right? I thought nothing was "lost in translation" one needs to know the original languages with no translation intruding. But the Lord helps us in our fraility.He condescends to us in a baby-like lisp by having His Word expressed in the stammering tongue of human languages.

Do you think the message of God's Word can only be communicated in one form only? If the form deviates from the wording of the KJV then the Word of God is lost?!

 

[JustChristian]

Why is it that God tells me that I will be judge for every word that I have spoken? Are these preserved for all eternity so that I can give an account for them? Why would God preserve my exact words but not His?

Mat 12:37
KJV - For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
NKJV - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
NLT - The words you say now reflect your fate then; either you will be justified by them or you will be condemned."
NIV - For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
ESV - “for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
NASB - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
RSV - "for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
ASV - For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Young - 'for from thy words thou shalt be declared righteous, and from thy words thou shalt be declared unrighteous.'
Darby - for by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Webster - For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
HNV - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Are you arguing that since God faithfully records everything we say that therefore the Bible must be inerrant because he would certainly preserve his own words? Or, are you lamenting that everything we say is recorded exactly but that the word of God is not preserved without error? One is an argument for inerrancy and the other is a lament because there is no inerrancy.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Are you arguing that since God faithfully records everything we say that therefore the Bible must be inerrant because he would certainly preserve his own words? Or, are you lamenting that everything we say is recorded exactly but that the word of God is not preserved without error? One is an argument for inerrancy and the other is a lament because there is no inerrancy.

Simply saying......hopeful for understanding........
God is keeping Record. He is able to bring back every word that I ever spoke and cause it to be heard again. How He will do it...I know not. Will he do it? He will or He is not God. He will be a liar.

Mt. 12:
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Here it is again. I am sure it only means ideas and thoughts. It really doesn't mean every word.

Now comes the point. IF God can keep every word of mine.......why hasn't He kept every word of His?

Bartimaeus

 

[Bartimaeus]

Which automatically leads into another issue. If God cannot or has not preserved His every word, then.....

has He preserved His accounting of this?

I Pet 4:
5 Who shall give ACCOUNT to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

God has not kept an accounting of every deed done down through the ages of every man so that he can call every man into accounting. He has only kept a general idea and consensus. Oh.....may we go another step further....He has not kept a blow by blow accounting of every nation so that at the judgement of nations He will only bring forth a relative idea of their wrongs and deceitful and pernicious activities throughout the ages. (Riiiiiiiight)

Consistency is important.

Bartimaeus

 

[Dale-c]

Which automatically leads into another issue. If God cannot or has not preserved His every word, then.....

has He preserved His accounting of this?

I Pet 4:
5 Who shall give ACCOUNT to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

This is a strawman.
You are dodging the real issues of the thread and making up your own strawmen to swat down.


Who said God has not preserved his word? Certainly not me!

Consistency is important.

Yes, it is important God holding us accountable for our actions is a total rabbit trail from the issue at hand.


You say others have not answered questions but please answer me this:

1. If you insist on a 100% perfect and literal translation, which edition of the KJV contains 100% word for word THE Word of God?
There have been many revisions of the KJV and I highly doubt you use the 1611.

2. By what authority is the KJV "The Bible" and other translations are not, such as the Geneva Bible, the ASV, the NKJV and the NASB et al?

3. What was THE Bible in the years prior to 1611 in England and at what exact time did the KJV become "The Bible"


I will remind you of your own words from the last page that have been preserved for few days now

PK,
Everyone is quick to correct you and advise you and admonish you, but......again.....very interesting........no one answers you.

So, I will admonish you to take your own advice and answer my questions.

 

[Dale-c]

Dale,
I will answer your questions but first I must deal with your answers to mine.

I assume that you plan to respond to my questions later.
Meanwhile I will respond to a couple of points you made.

By what will you be judge in heaven? Is it not the Word of God?

This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Revelation 19:7-8 KJV
"the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white; FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF SAINTS."

Revelation 19:7-8 (NIV, NASB, NKJB)
"the fine linen is the RIGHTEOUS ACTS of the saints."
Revelation 19:7-8 (ESV)
"for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints."

Doctrine of Works?? Nothing lost here, right!!

I see nothing at all lost here. The only thing missing is actually missing from the KJV in the word works or deeds. But the meaning is conveyed either way.

How do you know the KJV has the proper rendering here an not the ESV? By what authority do you make the KJV the standard?
You are working off of a presupposition that the KJV is THE standard, a presupposition than the very translators would have never taken themselves.

Showing a textual variation in no way proves EITHER text is proper or in proper.
The KJV is nothing more than a translation of the Bible just as the NASB etc are.

 

[PK]

I assume that you plan to respond to my questions later.
Meanwhile I will respond to a couple of points you made.


This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.



I see nothing at all lost here. The only thing missing is actually missing from the KJV in the word works or deeds. But the meaning is conveyed either way.

How do you know the KJV has the proper rendering here an not the ESV? By what authority do you make the KJV the standard?
You are working off of a presupposition that the KJV is THE standard, a presupposition than the very translators would have never taken themselves.

Showing a textual variation in no way proves EITHER text is proper or in proper.
The KJV is nothing more than a translation of the Bible just as the NASB etc are.

Please show me scripture that says anything good about my righteousness as a man and that is achieved through my deeds. Please do not use a catholic bible to prove your point.

 

[PK]

I assume that you plan to respond to my questions later.
Meanwhile I will respond to a couple of points you made.


This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.



I see nothing at all lost here. The only thing missing is actually missing from the KJV in the word works or deeds. But the meaning is conveyed either way.

How do you know the KJV has the proper rendering here an not the ESV? By what authority do you make the KJV the standard?
You are working off of a presupposition that the KJV is THE standard, a presupposition than the very translators would have never taken themselves.

Showing a textual variation in no way proves EITHER text is proper or in proper.
The KJV is nothing more than a translation of the Bible just as the NASB etc are.

I find it very interesting that you would say that doctrine is not important.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is a strawman.
You are dodging the real issues of the thread and making up your own strawmen to swat down.


Who said God has not preserved his word? Certainly not me!

Yes, it is important God holding us accountable for our actions is a total rabbit trail from the issue at hand.


You say others have not answered questions but please answer me this:

1. If you insist on a 100% perfect and literal translation, which edition of the KJV contains 100% word for word THE Word of God?
There have been many revisions of the KJV and I highly doubt you use the 1611.

2. By what authority is the KJV "The Bible" and other translations are not, such as the Geneva Bible, the ASV, the NKJV and the NASB et al?

3. What was THE Bible in the years prior to 1611 in England and at what exact time did the KJV become "The Bible"


I will remind you of your own words from the last page that have been preserved for few days now


So, I will admonish you to take your own advice and answer my questions.

I find KJV people interesting. As baptist go they are sola scriptura. However, It seems that KJO people are not very aware of how the bible was put together, became canonized, and was transmitted down through the ages. It seems that they are regurgitating other teachings without delving into the matter themselves. Which if you're sola scriptura and the scriptures alone are authoriative then you would thing an indepth study of all aspects of scripture from initiation to the writen word would be studied. Just an observation.

 

[Dale-c]

Please show me scripture that says anything good about my righteousness as a man and that is achieved through my deeds. Please do not use a catholic bible to prove your point.

Why should I show you this? I am a calvinist. I do not believe man has any good in and of himself. Furthermore, what does that have to do with this discussion.
There are plenty of debates on here on the topic of calvinism and we do not need to discuss it here.

I find it very interesting that you would say that doctrine is not important.

When did I ever say doctrine was not important? You make no sense and are not dealing with the issues at hand.

You imply that I said doctrine is not important when I have never said that. That is false.
You said you would answer my questions but you did not. You are under no obligation to post here or answer any of my question, but if you say you will, I would like to think that you would keep your word.

I will ask them again:

1. If you insist on a 100% perfect and literal translation, which edition of the KJV contains 100% word for word THE Word of God?
There have been many revisions of the KJV and I highly doubt you use the 1611.

2. By what authority is the KJV "The Bible" and other translations are not, such as the Geneva Bible, the ASV, the NKJV and the NASB et al?

3. What was THE Bible in the years prior to 1611 in England and at what exact time did the KJV become "The Bible"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Why should I show you this? I am a calvinist. I do not believe man has any good in and of himself. Furthermore, what does that have to do with this discussion.
There are plenty of debates on here on the topic of calvinism and we do not need to discuss it here.

When did I ever say doctrine was not important? You make no sense and are not dealing with the issues at hand.

You imply that I said doctrine is not important when I have never said that. That is false.
You said you would answer my questions but you did not. You are under no obligation to post here or answer any of my question, but if you say you will, I would like to think that you would keep your word.

I will ask them again:

1. If you insist on a 100% perfect and literal translation, which edition of the KJV contains 100% word for word THE Word of God?
There have been many revisions of the KJV and I highly doubt you use the 1611.

2. By what authority is the KJV "The Bible" and other translations are not, such as the Geneva Bible, the ASV, the NKJV and the NASB et al?

3. What was THE Bible in the years prior to 1611 in England and at what exact time did the KJV become "The Bible"

Works can't save you but they sure are an expression of your salvation (good calvinist thought) With out it a question of personal salvation should come up.